Heh, interesting discussion. I'm going to throw a spanner in the works and say the fact that Harry didn't tell Ruth about the location had nothing to do with trust, and everything to do with need-to-know. When you're a spy, and especially someone in Harry's position, no matter how much you might trust someone, there will always be things that you will have to keep secret, because that's your job. Harry may also have thought that it was better for Ruth's own safety that she didn't know.

This is pure speculation on my part, but how I imagined it happened was that Ruth helped Harry to spirit the uranium out of Iraq and stash it in Norfolk. Harry, being the good spy that he is, never told the CIA or even MI6 where it was, but he knew that the same elements that tried to plant the uranium in Irag would also like to have it back. So I imagine he moved it at regular intervals, and never told anyone. I agree with Tea Lady that Harry didn't need anyone else to know the location.

Hmmm. I agree that he moved it around. I suppose it's quite possible that he didn't tell Ruth where he was hiding it - but otherwise what was the point of him *telling* her it was in Norfolk? Is this Harry's version of showing off, making a show of trust in Ruth? If that's the case, it certainly strengthens the argument for it happening later rather than sooner!

I think it was legit that it was in Norfolk, at least for a time.

(01-08-2010 03:05 PM)JHyde Wrote:  I think it was legit that it was in Norfolk, at least for a time.

Agreed. I think the reason Mani knew about Norfolk and had looked there already, was because they had been trying to track what Harry did with it the first time he moved it from Iraq, but lost track of what he did with it after he'd moved it a few times.

Exactly. Which I think was why it took a few years for the whole escapade to culminate with 8.1.

But obviously not TOO long, like I suggested earlier.

(01-08-2010 03:05 PM)JHyde Wrote:  Hmmm. I agree that he moved it around. I suppose it's quite possible that he didn't tell Ruth where he was hiding it - but otherwise what was the point of him *telling* her it was in Norfolk? Is this Harry's version of showing off, making a show of trust in Ruth?

To my mind the only reason Harry would make a show of his trust in Ruth would be for a specific operational purpose and for the ultimate benefit of Mani, Libby and the "cowboy from 6." As if to say, "We are all in the know. And since I am the one moving it, if anything happens to me, Ruth here knows to." It may have been the only way they would have allowed him to have full control over the movement of the uranium. I don't think he had any intention of keeping it in one place - or of putting anyone else at risk by telling them once he did move it again. I think he thought he was protecting his team by not telling them. Of course, that backfired on him in the end.

I also don't think he would have brought Ruth at all if she did not have a very specific skill set needed for the operation. I think his decision to bring her was clinical: Harry in full work mode.

That's always how I imagined it too. northernexposure on fanfiction.net wrote a wonderful version of what might have happened that was very similar to how I imagined it going, Ruth coming along for her language skills and analysis of comms and chatter. But northernexposure's timing wasn't the same as mine, I think she had it ballparked it in early season 3. Interestingly she ended up changing her mind about the timing some months after she published the fic, she ended up going for mid season 4.

A Cousin, what do you think about the timing? When do you think it was?

Well, you know I find the whole thing a little contrived and forced into place but if I had to place it I too would place it late S4, specifically between 4.7 and 4.9. I am a little afraid to put this out there b/c there are probably holes I cannot justify and details I have not considered. But - kawabunga - here I go! Here's why I think this.

1) Generally 2005/S4: I am not sure they would have made this kind of a trip to complete this kind of under the table operation with the UN inspectors in Iraq. They are there (the last time ) between 2003 (which coincides with S2 and Ruth's secondment) and the end of 2004. By late 2004, the inspectors had given up finding anything. This was made public in early 2005 - which coincides with S4. In fact, I did find a quote from the British Foreign Office from 24 April, 2005 that states that "the hunt for WMD will continue whatever authority is in charge, right now the Iraq interim government." Seems there was shift to a more covert search after inspectors left.

2) Definitely after 4.3: I don't think Harry would have taken Ruth into the field with him unless she had proven herself as capable of handling it. She doesn't go into the field until 4.1 and 4.3. While her being sent into the field in 4.1 is Adams operational decision, I don't think it could have happened at all without Harry's knowledge and approval. In addition, at the end of 4.3, Harry is almost bursting with pride at how well Ruth handled herself in the field.

3) Moving it to after 4.7: I have always asked myself, Why Ruth? Why not Adam? Or Zaf? Or Fiona? Or Tom, Zoe, or Danny for that matter? It is stretching it a bit, but maybe Harry made the decision to take Ruth not only b/c she had the skill set needed but b/c no one else was a possibility. I suggest that she may have been chosen by default. Consider the possibilities in S4: Fiona, Adam, Jo, Zaf, Malcolm, Colin, Ruth. Fiona, Adam and Zaf all came from 6 and might know "the cowboy,", Jo is too inexperienced and Malcolm and Colin are not field officers by any stretch of the imagination. I would even go as far as to say that Harry may have taken Adam but he didn't because by 4.7, Fiona is dead and Adam is still too emotionally delicate in Harry's eyes.

4) For me there is a palpable shift in Harry and Ruth's "relationship" on or before 4.9. Maybe it is because in my first viewing I did not see anything more than a very close work bond between them until that episode. I guess I was too concentrated on sticking with the plot du jour to see their "relationship" develop. Maybe it is just Harry getting kicked off the grid, but it could be something more. Something else they had shared together - work wise. Just a speculation.

Wow! This is long. Hope you are still reading....

(03-08-2010 04:11 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  Wow! This is long. Hope you are still reading....

You do put forward a good argument A Cousin. I know I have already had my ten cents worth so I won't bang on too much. I know I am pretty much on my own going for 2003 but my final thought is, if it was as late as 2005, when Harry already had feelings for Ruth, strong feelings, why would he take her to the most dangerous place in the world at that time i.e. Baghdad?

We're not sure yet if we're going to write an entry for this. But there are good reasons for why this should be included in Ruth's Diary so feel free to jump in on this, even if it's well after the discussion of the last few days.

(03-08-2010 04:25 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I know I am pretty much on my own going for 2003 but my final thought is, if it was as late as 2005, when Harry already had feelings for Ruth, strong feelings, why would he take her to the most dangerous place in the world at that time i.e. Baghdad?

Well... Now that is a very good point, TL! The only explanation I can think of is that he felt she was the only one he trusted enough at that stage, and that it was something he couldn't do on his own.