(28-10-2010 04:16 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  Knowing the spoiler from next week, I still don't think what Lucas has to hide can explain why he would have chosen the dangerous and unlikely to succeed action path he opted for, or would have stayed with it for very long if he did. Even if I accept he was obsessed with being with Maya, I believe the character I have seen in the series 7 and 8 would have thought his best chance to be with Maya would have been to face Harry, for practical reasons, let alone moral ones. It has to wait until it is all over before i can give my reasons.

It has done what was intended though in creating massive interest and keeping people hooked so it's a good story for Spooks. What is turning a character sour compared to that, just a trifle. As someone said, all except Harry are expendable.

I think Ruth going bad might have made more sense though. They would not have had to invent something never heard of before and an unbelievable romance, (Lucas had already had two for heaven's sake!), to explain it. We all saw the way Ruth was sucked back into MI5; she could easily have had a festering grief, regret and resentment lead her to revenge of some sort to provide the series intrigue and shock. She could even have led Harry on in the process to really shock. I wonder what the discussions would be like had they gone that path.

I absolutely agree!
Now I've read the spoiler and I have to say that the story still doesn't work for me and that I still find it totally unbelievable - unless there is much more to it. Up to a certain point I could buy that theme of guilt and redemption and the story about someone who has done something terribly wrong and then regrets it and tries to make up for it. Ok, joining MI5 is a bit of an odd choice (I always thought they had at least some sort of vetting process, but obviously I was wrong) and I suspect we will never get an answer to the question what made him regret what he had done. But I would be willing to go along with that. I could even understand that someone like that would do anything to protect that secret. But that's where the credibility ends for me. Because why on earth doesn't Lucas do the obvious, which would be killing Vaughn? He's supposed to be intelligent, so he should know how dangerous it is to give in to blackmail. Why doesn't he hesitate to frame an innocent colleague and to let an innocent girl bleed to death if he could have solved the problem by getting rid of Vaughn, who I suspect is not innocent. No one so far could give me a good explanation for that. In fact no-one ever tried. There are some theories out there about why Vaughn has that power over Lucas and I could live with most of them. But my fear is that we will never get an answer, that the writers just wanted to tell us something really new and interesting and didn't bother to give us an explanation. I would be more than happy to be wrong on this one, but from all you hear or read it will just be a simple story about someone suddenly turning from good to evil and acting completely out of character. Because Lucas' behaviour for me is just that, it's completely out of character. And I'm not saying this only because I've seen how he behaved in series 7 and 8. When you listen to the commentary to 7.8 they say about him: "What I like about Lucas is the fact that Lucas seems to be driven by a moral fire. He has this kind of moral anger in his core. And this makes him totally different to the rest of the team and to previous leading men." And they go on saying how similar Lucas is to Harry in that respect. And now we are meant to believe that someone with that moral fire would ruin/kill innocent people without batting an eyelid? If they don't give us a very good reason for that and if they don't tell us why Vaughn has that influence over Lucas then I really would be very disappointed and very angry.

(28-10-2010 06:27 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  I absolutely agree!
Now I've read the spoiler and I have to say that the story still doesn't work for me and that I still find it totally unbelievable - unless there is much more to it. Up to a certain point I could buy that theme of guilt and redemption and the story about someone who has done something terribly wrong and then regrets it and tries to make up for it. Ok, joining MI5 is a bit of an odd choice (I always thought they had at least some sort of vetting process, but obviously I was wrong) and I suspect we will never get an answer to the question what made him regret what he had done. But I would be willing to go along with that. I could even understand that someone like that would do anything to protect that secret. But that's where the credibility ends for me. Because why on earth doesn't Lucas do the obvious, which would be killing Vaughn? He's supposed to be intelligent, so he should know how dangerous it is to give in to blackmail. Why doesn't he hesitate to frame an innocent colleague and to let an innocent girl bleed to death if he could have solved the problem by getting rid of Vaughn, who I suspect is not innocent. No one so far could give me a good explanation for that. In fact no-one ever tried. There are some theories out there about why Vaughn has that power over Lucas and I could live with most of them. But my fear is that we will never get an answer, that the writers just wanted to tell us something really new and interesting and didn't bother to give us an explanation. I would be more than happy to be wrong on this one, but from all you hear or read it will just be a simple story about someone suddenly turning from good to evil and acting completely out of character. Because Lucas' behaviour for me is just that, it's completely out of character. And I'm not saying this only because I've seen how he behaved in series 7 and 8. When you listen to the commentary to 7.8 they say about him: "What I like about Lucas is the fact that Lucas seems to be driven by a moral fire. He has this kind of moral anger in his core. And this makes him totally different to the rest of the team and to previous leading men." And they go on saying how similar Lucas is to Harry in that respect. And now we are meant to believe that someone with that moral fire would ruin/kill innocent people without batting an eyelid? If they don't give us a very good reason for that and if they don't tell us why Vaughn has that influence over Lucas then I really would be very disappointed and very angry.

I wouldn't say that the secret that Lucas is hiding explains everything about this storyline, but I would say that for me personally, it is BEGINNING to start making sense why he has gone all forms of crazy and desperation. I can see why he is so desperate now, why he is willing to do anything to keep this a secret, and why he fears Maya and Harry knowing. I can understand that he fears to loose MI5, loose Maya, loose his love and home.

BUT you make a good point in asking why doesn't Lucas just kill Vaughn. That is what I question too! So hopefully there is an explanation why Lucas has had so many chances to kill Vaughn but he didn't.

[Completely Shallow Comment Alert - to lighten this thread up a bit]

As this thread is about Lucas:

I just wish the black singlet and/or the tight blue t-shirt would make another come-back.

And what happened to the much-talked about love-scene (on the table) with Maya? Did I blink and miss it?

(29-10-2010 11:13 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  [Completely Shallow Comment Alert - to lighten this thread up a bit]

As this thread is about Lucas:

I just wish the black singlet and/or the tight blue t-shirt would make another come-back.

And what happened to the much-talked about love-scene (on the table) with Maya? Did I blink and miss it?

Maybe Lucas in leather? It could his John persona!

As for the love scene, well I'm glad I didn't see much of it, I may just run away and scream!

Not that I don't like love scenes or anything, but I see no need for me to see make-out sessions on tables......they can keep that private!

When I was thinking about Ruth at least having something concrete in her background to explain why she could run off the rails, I realised Lucas did too.

I would have had as much trouble believing my view of Lucas from S7 and 8 would be a traitor, but at least I would have known the writers had been raising the question in those series and if he had just gone bad and been a traitor, I could have accepted that that story at least had some credibility. In fact, Lucas had so much in his past life that we knew about that could have been used as a credible reason for his going rogue, even a festering revenge for being left in prison for 8 years, or some of the other possibilities that have been raised in discussions.

In addition to the Lucas story being hard to believe for me, his disgrace seems to be worse too than with other options. At least a traitor is motivated by ideology, mistaken though it may be, rather than self interest. What they have done with this Lucas story (things being as they seem at the moment, I hasten to add), is character assassination for mine.

(29-10-2010 01:46 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  When I was thinking about Ruth at least having something concrete in her background to explain why she could run off the rails, I realised Lucas did too.

I would have had as much trouble believing my view of Lucas from S7 and 8 would be a traitor, but at least I would have known the writers had been raising the question in those series and if he had just gone bad and been a traitor, I could have accepted that that story at least had some credibility. In fact, Lucas had so much in his past life that we knew about that could have been used as a credible reason for his going rogue, even a festering revenge for being left in prison for 8 years, or some of the other possibilities that have been raised in discussions.

In addition to the Lucas story being hard to believe for me, his disgrace seems to be worse too than with other options. At least a traitor is motivated by ideology, mistaken though it may be, rather than self interest. What they have done with this Lucas story (things being as they seem at the moment, I hasten to add), is character assassination for mine.

I agree with you, TEHI. The writers have gone to the trouble of writing Lucas as such a focussed character and given him a strong moral compass so why then let him go rogue for so trivial and shallow a reason? We know he is a bit unstable when it comes to his dealings with women so I could accept him doing something a bit stupid for love, but I find it impossible to accept that he would risk everything just to keep his past hidden. There is nothing he could have done in the past as John that couldn't be redeemed by his years of loyal service as Lucas. He should have taken Vaughn to the grid, told Harry everything, and then try to make his peace with Maya. Eventually he could have revealed to her his new life as an officer with MI5 and explained that he'd had to change his name for "operational reasons". If she loved him as much as we are expected to believe, she could have adjusted to this revelation in time.

(29-10-2010 01:46 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  At least a traitor is motivated by ideology, mistaken though it may be, rather than self interest.

When did this become true for all traitors? Are you suggesting that no traitor has ever been motivated by self-interest? I can think of a dozen episodes of Spooks which say otherwise.

As for those saying Lucas wouldn't risk everything to keep his past hidden, how exactly did you arrive at that conclusion?

I agree, Nitrus. I think Lucas IS risking everything to keep his past hidden, that it's self-preservation, and that he's (now) struggling with two identities - Lucas and John. So interesting.

I have to say that Lucas IS risking everything to keep this horrible secret hidden, and while I believe that Lucas has already paid the punishment for this secret from 15 years ago, to Lucas, he CANNOT risk the chance of it ever coming out, because he can't risk losing Maya's love or his home at MI5.

It's not about Harry's reaction or even Maya's reaction, it is strictly about Lucas and what's going on inside his own head. He simply just cannot risk ANY chance that this secret can come out, he simply cannot risk ANY chance that Harry will turn on him or that Maya will hate and reject him. What Lucas doing is now self-preservation, and THAT is a part of who Lucas is. If his survival mode didn't kick into high gear, he would not have survived the 8 years of torment in Russia. Think about it, Lucas said yes to Kachimov's plan to be a double agent so that he could get back home to MI5 and then turned on Kachimov. Why? Because in Lucas's head, he thought no one was coming for him, so he had to find a way to get himself out, even if it meant for one second pretend to betray his country. Harry didn't get Lucas back because the Russians needed their spy, he got Lucas back because Lucas himself agreed to be traitor. Lucas fought so incredibly hard to get back home to MI5, this job, this team, it's his everything, it's his whole life, it's everything he ever stood for. And if something is gonna threaten that home, then I can believe that Lucas will do anything to keep that from happening.

Lucas in survival mode will do anything to survive. He fought to get back home, he fought to keep his home, he sure as hell isn't gonna risk ANY chance that it can be taken away.

So do I believe that Lucas is willing to risk everything to keep that past hidden? I do. Because in Lucas's damaged psyche, he CANNOT risk losing this life, this home that he built for himself. If he loses that, he loses who he is. And for Lucas, it's just way too frightening, way too much hurt, that he can't allow himself to go through.

Do I think he's now a evil traitor? No, never, of course not. But he is a damaged man who is desperately trying to keep the life that he fought so hard to get back to. Lucas has already suffered through so many horrors that few people in life have ever experienced, in his mind, he cannot loose the only family, the only life he has left.

This is why he is fighting, this is why he is doing all these things and making these horrible choices, because he's frightened, he's scared, he's lost. He just wants to keep his home, his love, and his life. He's like a ship lost in the storms, trying desperately to keep holding on to the anchor that holds him to life.

The only question that I have in this storyline is why Lucas didn't just kill Vaughn? He had many chances to but didn't, there has to be a reason for that and hopefully the writers will explain it.

(29-10-2010 08:54 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  

(29-10-2010 01:46 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  At least a traitor is motivated by ideology, mistaken though it may be, rather than self interest.

When did this become true for all traitors? Are you suggesting that no traitor has ever been motivated by self-interest? I can think of a dozen episodes of Spooks which say otherwise.

As for those saying Lucas wouldn't risk everything to keep his past hidden, how exactly did you arrive at that conclusion?

I am no traitor expert and there are exceptions to every rule, but if traitors are usually motivated by self interest (for what I am not sure), I will acceed to your view.

I am not sure if I have this right either but to me, we seem to be being told that Lucas is doing this to have a life with Maya and that hiding his past is necessary for that.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but even if I agreed Lucas has the character to do the things he has done, my impression is that Lucas is an intelligent man with a great deal of respect, affection and trust for Harry and I find it hard to believe that Lucas would think the dangerous and hard to hide path he has undertaken would give him more chance of being with Maya than facing Harry and Maya with his past and with Vaughn's return to his life.

Harry has forgiven others for pretty serious errors I think, and I would have thought Lucas would believe years of service to MI5, serving 8 years in a Russian hell hole, and risking more Russian prison by going to Russia to help clear Harry of false treason charges, (which would not have succeeded without Lucas and there would be no Harry), would earn some forgiveness and seem like some kind of atonement to Harry for past sins.


Leaving aside whether you believe in the invention of the past life, what you think Lucas would do about it all boils down to how you rate Lucas in terms of being an ethical, loyal and an intelligent person. I rate him highly in all three so I think he would have made different choices. If you don't rate him, then you probably think he would have made the choices they have given us.