If you trust somebody then you are always opening yourself up to be hurt. You may never, ever, be hurt mind you, but there is always the risk. The alternative is never trust anyone, but that isn't much of a life.

For all Harry's pain over the years, where people have let him down, lets not forget all those officers that never did. Harry was loyal to them, and they were loyal in return. Zoe, Danny, Fiona, Colin, Malcolm, Jo, Ben.

I wouldn't necessarily say that his loyalty blinded him though, just that he wasn't ready to jump to conclusions about what they were up to. He had to move to acceptance and then action. Nothing wrong with taking your time, so not to make a mistake.

Also Harry has made plenty of "mistakes" himself throughout his career. Telling Juliet about operation Omega, his friend Bill dying, his affairs, killing Katchamov? against orders etc. All these actions may well have endangered the Country in one way or another.

(29-10-2010 09:40 AM)Tea Lady Wrote:  For all Harry's pain over the years, where people have let him down, lets not forget all those officers that never did. Harry was loyal to them, and they were loyal in return. Zoe, Danny, Fiona, Colin, Malcolm, Jo, Ben.

*sniff sniff* Now you are making me cry...

And even some of the ones who have let him down in the past have turned their lives around for Harry and served their country well. Adam who ultimately died getting that bomb away from innocent civilians, and Ros who died trying to save the Home Secretary. Even they turned out to be officers that Harry can be proud of.

(29-10-2010 08:42 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I'd say that Harry's loyalty is both a strength and a weakness, it's a double-edge sword. Yes the officers he trusted have endangered Queen and Country and made mistakes, they are human after all, but his trust in his officers have also allowed the team to save many lives as well.

(29-10-2010 09:40 AM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I wouldn't necessarily say that his loyalty blinded him though, just that he wasn't ready to jump to conclusions about what they were up to. He had to move to acceptance and then action. Nothing wrong with taking your time, so not to make a mistake.

Also Harry has made plenty of "mistakes" himself throughout his career. Telling Juliet about operation Omega, his friend Bill dying, his affairs, killing Katchamov? against orders etc. All these actions may well have endangered the Country in one way or another.

See, that's the thing for me. With the possible exception of Tom, what the others did were not normal mistakes, like leaving your laptop with secret stuff on a train, for example. That's a mistake. But Adam, Ros and Lucas all made conscious choices to betray the trust put in them by Harry and by their country. Yes, Harry has made mistakes, but he's never done that.

I just think that, had he perhaps kept his Section Chiefs on a closer leash after the Tom debacle, he may have noticed what the others were up to sooner.

What all these incidents do also, is make Harry look rather incompetent. How many more times before his bosses decide it's too much?

I agree with that. But Lucas spent 8 years in Russian confinement and we have no indication that he gave anything up. I guess that buys a lot of leeway, which it should, but Lucas has been unstable for some time, I think. I think the nuclear bomb almost going off was the beginning of the way down for him, much as Tom almost having to shoot those imposters in 2.5 was the beginning of the end for him.

I think Harry has always seen a lot of his own loyalty in Lucas and if Lucas turns out to destroy all of this for the sake of Maya, Harry will be more than disappointed. Even more than the Lucas fans! (OK, maybe not that much. But close.)

(29-10-2010 10:17 AM)Silktie Wrote:  See, that's the thing for me. With the possible exception of Tom, what the others did were not normal mistakes, like leaving your laptop with secret stuff on a train, for example. That's a mistake. But Adam, Ros and Lucas all made conscious choices to betray the trust put in them by Harry and by their country. Yes, Harry has made mistakes, but he's never done that.

I'm not saying that what Adam, Ros, or Lucas have done were simple mistakes. And it is true that if Harry kept a closer leash or was not trusting of them, he probably would have found out sooner. But it's that same trust and loyalty that Harry displays that turned things around for Adam and Ros. If Harry wasn't the loyal man who inspired admiration and trust from his people, Adam wouldn't still be serving under Harry, nor would he have given his life protecting the city from that bomb, and Ros wouldn't turned her whole life around to join Harry and in the end sacrificing her life staying behind to save the Home Secretary.

It's because of that trust and loyalty that Harry puts into his officers that when they make a horrible decision, they feel the guilt and shame, and because they know they let him down, they try to turn it around and make up for the choices they made.

If Harry didn't trust so much of his officers and have that strong bond with them, loyalty from his own people wouldn't be there either. If he kept everyone at arm's length and was seen as cold and not-trusting, then the people under him wouldn't be so gun-ho to risk their lives or walk through fire for him. Harry's loyalty to his people is what instills his people's loyalty to him. This section is loyal to Harry Pearce, and they've shown that when Harry was accused and the team fought to exonerate him. If he wasn't close to his people, then I seriously doubt Harry would still be alive today.

(29-10-2010 10:17 AM)Silktie Wrote:  I just think that, had he perhaps kept his Section Chiefs on a closer leash after the Tom debacle, he may have noticed what the others were up to sooner.

Well, I can't argue with that statement because it certainly would be true. But I guess for storyline purposes it would make every series end a bit sooner.

(29-10-2010 10:17 AM)Silktie Wrote:  What all these incidents do also, is make Harry look rather incompetent. How many more times before his bosses decide it's too much?

I think it makes Harry look human.

As for his bosses, well, maybe they should put out better security vetting processes because it really sucks, I mean how many moles have turned up around here? And frankly it's not all Harry's fault moles appear....

(29-10-2010 10:36 AM)JHyde Wrote:  I agree with that.

Series 9.7 Spoiler: show

If, as the trailer indicates, Harry chastises Ruth for spying on Lucas and he gets defensive, I think it is pig headed of him to trust Lucas over Ruth. (Then again, Ruth was originally a 'spy' for another side. But it's not comparable!)

But Lucas spent 8 years in Russian confinement and we have no indication that he gave anything up. I guess that buys a lot of leeway, which it should, but Lucas has been unstable for some time, I think. I think the nuclear bomb almost going off was the beginning of the way down for him, much as Tom almost having to shoot those imposters in 2.5 was the beginning of the end for him.

Personally, I always thought it was miraculous that Lucas still had coherent functions after surviving 8 years of imprisonment and torture. To come out of a Russian prison after 8 years and still be functioning and brilliant, well, I give him points for that. It's amazing that he didn't turn out to be an incoherent mess in the first place.

I think the thing with Harry and Lucas is that, in his heart Harry trusts Lucas, but his head doesn't. I think Harry sees himself in Lucas, and more than anything feels responsible, like he said, for Lucas's mental and physical well-being, after all that Lucas has suffered. So he feels that at least Lucas deserves to have that trust.

I keep thinking back to Ros's words to Lucas "Harry sweated blood to get you back here, he'd rather die than ever let anything happen to you"

(29-10-2010 10:36 AM)JHyde Wrote:  I think Harry has always seen a lot of his own loyalty in Lucas and if Lucas turns out to destroy all of this for the sake of Maya, Harry will be more than disappointed. Even more than the Lucas fans! (OK, maybe not that much. But close.)

I think this is more than just Maya, she is part of the issue, but it's also about Lucas's home at MI5, his trust with Harry. Lucas is afraid of losing that if this secret comes out. And I just hope that when all is revealed that Harry can help Lucas. Because I have a feeling that if Harry turns his back on Lucas, then there's no telling what kind of damage it will do to Lucas's psyche to loose that home he fought so hard to come back to, and I see a dark end for everyone.

And you're right, I don't want that loyalty to be thrown away, I certainly will be disappointed more than Harry to see it if it happens.

I knew I should have Lucas and Harry locked in a room together so they can just spill it all out! It would save all of us a lot of angsty scenes...

(29-10-2010 10:36 AM)JHyde Wrote:  I agree with that.

Series 9.7 Spoiler: show

If, as the trailer indicates, Harry chastises Ruth for spying on Lucas and he gets defensive, I think it is pig headed of him to trust Lucas over Ruth. (Then again, Ruth was originally a 'spy' for another side. But it's not comparable!)

I think Ruth always rushes in 'where angels fear to tread' - she knows it and that is why she is so afraid of making the total commitment to Harry - she respects him too much and wants to keep his respect for her.

(29-10-2010 11:09 AM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(29-10-2010 10:36 AM)JHyde Wrote:  I agree with that.

Series 9.7 Spoiler: show

If, as the trailer indicates, Harry chastises Ruth for spying on Lucas and he gets defensive, I think it is pig headed of him to trust Lucas over Ruth. (Then again, Ruth was originally a 'spy' for another side. But it's not comparable!)

Series 9.7 trailer Spoiler: show

I just wonder if that trailer is a little misleading. Perhaps Lucas gives Harry a very plausible story as to why he has acted like he has and Harry gives him another chance. There does appear to be scenes in that trailer which indicate that Lucas is still on the Grid. I think Ruth, who always acts like a dog with a bone, won't accept Harry giving in to Lucas that easily, which then irks Harry. Don't forget that it doesn't appear that Ruth has yet found out about the Albany file or the setting up of the other officer. Lucas could easily explain it away as being in love with Maya who hasn't been vetted yet, perhaps.

I agree with TL that the trailer could be misleading. I think it is significant that Harry called Lucas immediately after Ruth informed him of her suspicions. One of the things she says about Lucas, is that he is always disappearing of late, and then lies about his whereabouts, or something to that effect. I think Harry calling Lucas was to check up on where he was, and that he did so because he does believe Ruth on some level, and has suspicions of his own, but wants proof and to see for himself. Remember how he reprimanded Danny and Zoe for voicing doubts about what Tom was up to in season 2, only to then immediately fish Tom's file out of his drawer indicating that he'd already had suspicions of his own?

So, perhaps what we see in the trailer

Loved (in a way) seeing how hurt Harry was when he found out about the betrayal. Heavens, he must be getting used to it by now. The only thing that I didn't quite understand is why he gave Lucas his gun back and set him free. He had just admitted to killing 17+ people. Maybe if Harry had known about Albany, it would have been a different matter. Why he couldn't have sent Beth with him though, I don't quite understand, even if she just stayed in the car.

Is Harry's judgement still affected by what happened earlier in the series? Perhaps he didn't see Lucas' betrayal as "that bad" from the story he was told. Maybe Harry can now stop feeling guilty for the 8 years Lucas spent in that Russian cell.

Harry seems to be getting softer as Ruth builds an increasingly hard shell round her.
What is going to happen next week between Lucas and Harry on the rooftop.?
They can't kill Harry off - can they - Spooks will certainly never be the same again if they do.