The only thing that makes any sense at all is that it was still a state secret to make the Chinese believe it could work. let us not forget that Ros said Harry would rather die that let anything happen to Lucas, - and remember Harry was prepared to go to prison for Ruth in Series 5. Poor Harry, what was he to do when Lucas was threatening Ruth, and he had told Ruth that he would go further for her than he had for Lucas. Was Ruth crying for Harry or for Lucas - I hope it was Harry and that there will eventually be a happy ennding for them in Series 10.

(10-11-2010 02:50 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Even Lucas, in his deranged state didn't really think Harry would hand over Albany, so maybe Harry is turning human. But that isn't going to bode well for series 10. To do his job I think he can only love his country, there is no room for anything else.

See, I don't agree with this. I think you need both aspects to be good in the job he's in. If you only had love for country, that will easily become twisted to the point where anything is acceptable to protect the country. Say for instance torture or the use of terrible weapons like Albany or the pathological agent of an earlier episode. But love of country needs to be tempered by an intimate connection to your own humanity through love for other people, be that his children or Ruth, to make him remember that there is a human cost to allowing the use of terrible measures to safeguard the country. These decisions can never be just black and white, there is a balance that needs to be achieved, and I don't think he can achieve that balance if he just has love for country.

Good points Silktie. I was perhaps thinking of the practical considerations more. In Harry's position he can not afford to be compromised as Lucas tried to do. Anytime somebody wanted a state secret they could just kidnap Ruth and ask him to hand it over.
I totally agree that he needs to love the people around him to appreciate the value of compassion, but he can't afford to love one person so much that he would do anything.

Let's not forget that Harry thought he had outsmarted Lucas and would be able to get the fake Albany back. I think Harry thought his plan was sound and he could save both Ruth and his job. He was prepared to play dirty and use Maya to help achieve that aim. I though Harry seemed shocked and surprised when he found out they had lost Lucas and Albany.

I don't think Harry told the team that Albany was fake because it was a state secret. That was the same reason he did not correct Ruth in his office. Question is will the team find out now? I don't think they were listening in to Harry on the rooftop?

(10-11-2010 06:33 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I don't think Harry told the team that Albany was fake because it was a state secret. That was the same reason he did not correct Ruth in his office. Question is will the team find out now? I don't think they were listening in to Harry on the rooftop?

This might be a little of the explanation (Harry is so used to lying to his team when he believes the situation is "need to know'" it's become second nature), but I think his decision has more to do with keeping them believing that Lucas needed to be caught, whatever the price. If they had known that Albany was a bust, would they really have pursued Lucas so doggedly? I don't think so.

(10-11-2010 06:33 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Let's not forget that Harry thought he had outsmarted Lucas and would be able to get the fake Albany back. I think Harry thought his plan was sound and he could save both Ruth and his job. He was prepared to play dirty and use Maya to help achieve that aim. I though Harry seemed shocked and surprised when he found out they had lost Lucas and Albany.

A thought just popped into my head when I read this.

This is also why I think there may be an ulterior motive to Harry deciding to play this game with Lucas. It wasn't "just" for love. Although that was part of it, maybe even the primary reason, there was an operational aspect to it as well. Lucas calls Harry's bluff. Seems Harry underestimated Lucas?

Another question: What did Alec know? He tells Harry prior to passing off Albany that if it goes wrong he should fully understand the consequences.

Should we start and Alec White thread yet? Love him or hate him I think he will be back. There was too much back story and implied history with Beth for Kudos to leave it there.

(10-11-2010 06:42 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 06:33 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I don't think Harry told the team that Albany was fake because it was a state secret. That was the same reason he did not correct Ruth in his office. Question is will the team find out now? I don't think they were listening in to Harry on the rooftop?

This might be a little of the explanation (Harry is so used to lying to his team when he believes the situation is "need to know'" it's become second nature), but I think his decision has more to do with keeping them believing that Lucas needed to be caught, whatever the price. If they had known that Albany was a bust, would they really have pursued Lucas so doggedly? I don't think so.

Agree with both of you that, although Albany didn't work that fact was a state secret in order for other major powers to think the UK held this awful genetic weapon so Harry had to keep that to himself. He was unravelling throughout the series and made some dodgy decisions at times with no regard to the possibility of losing his job and his going after Lucas was to outwit and catch him because he was a traitor but he was prepared to risk handing over Albany to save Ruth and to hell with the consequences as regards his position with MI5. I'm not sure he would tell Ruth the truth as he wouldn't want her compromised but who knows, it may come out when he's investigated anyway.

I know Ruth had her own emotional struggle this series but I'd hope in the next she'll be straight with Harry and tell him to go and get on with his life without her because she seems incapable of showing her love for him whatever sacrifice he makes for her. Either that or, much as I adore her, someone please give the lady a kick up the rear!!

I think Kudos is clever it knows the 'Ruth Harry' situation is a winner - they don't want to bring it to a conclusion too soon. So they just keep up this 'will she won't she' - but there has to be some satisfactory conclusion or we shall all get tired of the waiting game

(11-11-2010 10:44 AM)Puppetmaster Wrote:  I think Kudos is clever it knows the 'Ruth Harry' situation is a winner - they don't want to bring it to a conclusion too soon. So they just keep up this 'will she won't she' - but there has to be some satisfactory conclusion or we shall all get tired of the waiting game

I don't think as of this last series I would exactly put Kudos into the clever category anymore....but I do think they will bring out a satisfactory conclusion for Harry and Ruth if not for the sake that people don't murder them in their sleep!

Although I was initially so happy that Harry made it through series 9, various comments etc have made me a bit pessimistic that he will be in 10. However I’m going to proceed as though he will be and unfortunately I think he will freeze Ruth out.

In 9 it was all about Harry’s love for Ruth and I think he no longer believes it is returned. When Ruth tried to explain why she said no (“what would we do, what would we talk about”) it became clear to Harry. Harry would love Ruth wherever they were and whatever they were doing. Ruth loves the job and is still messed up emotionally. (I think it was an excuse on Ruth’s part because I didn’t understand why they couldn’t get married / have a proper relationship and still work?) Harry’s love for Ruth is unconditional. He sacrificed everything for her knowing that he would get nothing back.

Harry will probably admit everything the powers that be want him to and resign. He will do this to prevent Ruth, Malcolm and the team being part of the enquiry and being dragged through the mud with him. Maybe he will be told not to have further contact with the team and it will be suggested by the HS that he gets out of the country for 6 months to let things die down. He will protect Ruth by not having any contact and in any case won’t want her condemnation / gratitude / pity.

Ruth will have to decide what her true feelings are and what she wants while he is away.

Hopefully it will be Harry and she will ask Malcolm to find him. She will go to him and tell him that she accepts his marriage proposal. This will all be in the first episode, at the end of which, the HS realises that he cannot do without them and recalls them to prevent a major disaster. We can then have a Harry / Ruth relationship as we had in happier times and the episodes can concentrate on saving the world.

End of dream !