(15-11-2010 04:26 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  He definitely looks far better with the longer hair, more cuddly. Probably not what the Head of Counter-Terrorism wants though!

LOL! Cuddly! Now you got me stuck with the image of a Harry-plushie!

I'm not quite sure he would look very menacing with the curls, instead his enemies would more likely to die of laughter and pet him on the head than attack him.....hmmmmm maybe that's not a bad idea.....

He could be like all cuddly and adorable on the outside but menacing and dangerous on the inside!

Just a small thought but I think there's something more to the whole Albany story and Harry's almost relaxed attitude at just handing it over.
If Harry knew it didn't work why not just tell Lucas that he was doing it all for nothing,why not just hold Lucas instead of letting him go after Vaughn knowing full well that there was a chance he wouldn't return,I mean even Alec said "you know liars too Harry"
Then there's the whole going to the church and swapping them over,what was on the file that they replaced Albany with?? Harry had no idea Lucas would have the codes to test it with so why not try his luck at the exchange and if it didn't work then just tell Lucas were the real one was and hope he stuck to the deal and told Harry were Ruth was?
Also,if Harry really believed that he would kill Ruth why was that different to Mani and the plutonium (s8),he was a man who was intent on getting what he wanted and,yes,I know the Albany thing was fake but why risk everything for Ruth over something that didn't work anyway?
I know Harry said he wanted out,wanted to feel clean again but would the Harry Pearce that has given his life to the service really just give it all away like this,I don't think so some how.
Kudos better have a big story line ready to make sense of it all because after starting to watch back over all the series I'm stuck as to why Harry would just end it all in this way,I love Ruth but like she said to him "I'm not worth that much" and after losing the like's of Adam,Ros,Jo,Tom,Zoe,Danny,Colin and Zaf in comparison she isn't really.

(15-11-2010 05:39 PM)pfgirl1980 Wrote:  Just a small thought but I think there's something more to the whole Albany story and Harry's almost relaxed attitude at just handing it over.
If Harry knew it didn't work why not just tell Lucas that he was doing it all for nothing,why not just hold Lucas instead of letting him go after Vaughn knowing full well that there was a chance he wouldn't return,I mean even Alec said "you know liars too Harry"

Harry didn't know Lucas was after Albany until after he had let Lucas go. When Malcolm appeared on the Grid. Lucas felt he could only keep Maya safe by delivering Albany. Albany's power, was not telling anyone that it didn't work. Harry didn't want the Chinese, or anyone else who came looking for Albany, to know that it didn't work.

(15-11-2010 05:39 PM)pfgirl1980 Wrote:  Then there's the whole going to the church and swapping them over,what was on the file that they replaced Albany with?? Harry had no idea Lucas would have the codes to test it with so why not try his luck at the exchange and if it didn't work then just tell Lucas were the real one was and hope he stuck to the deal and told Harry were Ruth was?

Yes, that was a little confusing. My guess would be that even though Albany didn't work, all the technology and science behind it, was contained in that electronic file. Someone with less scruples and some intelligent scientists, perhaps could make it work. I doubt the British would have revisted the idea, once they found it didn't work. It's not a weapon the British would use. The fake Albany probably looked real on the face of it, but the sciene behind the idea was fake and would be useless.

(15-11-2010 05:39 PM)pfgirl1980 Wrote:  Also,if Harry really believed that he would kill Ruth why was that different to Mani and the plutonium (s8),he was a man who was intent on getting what he wanted and,yes,I know the Albany thing was fake but why risk everything for Ruth over something that didn't work anyway?
I know Harry said he wanted out,wanted to feel clean again but would the Harry Pearce that has given his life to the service really just give it all away like this,I don't think so some how.
Kudos better have a big story line ready to make sense of it all because after starting to watch back over all the series I'm stuck as to why Harry would just end it all in this way,I love Ruth but like she said to him "I'm not worth that much" and after losing the like's of Adam,Ros,Jo,Tom,Zoe,Danny,Colin and Zaf in comparison she isn't really.

Even though Albany didn't work it was still powerful. Look what happened because we all thought Iraq possessed WMD's. Fear is sometimes more powerful. Also, it was still a state secret and Harry could still face a treason charge. Harry couldn't lose Ruth again. Harry wouldn't be able to function or live. Harry had no choice to do what he did and sacrifice himself and hope to fight another day. Also, Harry had planned to get the fake Albany back. He thought he could save both, but Lucas got one over him.

(15-11-2010 06:00 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(15-11-2010 05:39 PM)pfgirl1980 Wrote:  Then there's the whole going to the church and swapping them over,what was on the file that they replaced Albany with?? Harry had no idea Lucas would have the codes to test it with so why not try his luck at the exchange and if it didn't work then just tell Lucas were the real one was and hope he stuck to the deal and told Harry were Ruth was?

Yes, that was a little confusing. My guess would be that even though Albany didn't work, all the technology and science behind it, was contained in that electronic file. Someone with less scruples and some intelligent scientists, perhaps could make it work. I doubt the British would have revisted the idea, once they found it didn't work. It's not a weapon the British would use. The fake Albany probably looked real on the face of it, but the sciene behind the idea was fake and would be useless.

Even though Albany didn't work it was still powerful. Look what happened because we all thought Iraq possessed WMD's. Fear is sometimes more powerful. Also, it was still a state secret and Harry could still face a treason charge. Harry couldn't lose Ruth again. Harry wouldn't be able to function or live. Harry had no choice to do what he did and sacrifice himself and hope to fight another day. Also, Harry had planned to get the fake Albany back. He thought he could save both, but Lucas got one over him.

You beat me to it TL! I would add only this.

Albany is still a state secret with a need-to-know status that still has the potential to work. The Human Genome Project made it possible if not probable. Although they had all the genes mapped by 2003, analysis in ongoing and ethical issues, even more so. You can imagine! Any research even on something that doesn't work is still research and puts the keeper closer to making it work.

Why would Harry know that Albany didn't work? It is not really within his remit as Head of Counter Terrorism. Something like Albany would have been held securely at Porton Down (military research base), and knowledge would be on a need to know basis, with perhaps the Head of MI5 knowing and possibly the Home Secretary.

Well, I think it's called "dramatic license". The same can be asked about Harry being the only one that knew where the uranium was in 8.1. In real life that would never, ever be the case, precisely to prevent that one man can be blackmailed to deliver it into the wrong hands. Otherwise, no President, PM, Intelligence Officer or senior military officer's loved ones would ever be safe. In real life it would need access codes from two or more people, or something like that, to get your hands on such sensitive secrets.

This is one instance where it'd be nice if Spooks were closer to reality, because then Harry can be allowed to love his kids and Ruth without this constant fear that they could be used against him in this way.

(16-11-2010 02:41 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Why would Harry know that Albany didn't work? It is not really within his remit as Head of Counter Terrorism. Something like Albany would have been held securely at Porton Down (military research base), and knowledge would be on a need to know basis, with perhaps the Head of MI5 knowing and possibly the Home Secretary.

Sure it might not be in the realistic purview of the Head of Counter Terrorism and more in the DG or DDG, but as has been established in the Spooks lexicon, the administrative levels between the HS and Harry don't exist. Not truthful, but not outside of the understood construct of the programme since S1. Therefore, Harry moves up the need-to-know ladder.

Clearly Harry is on a pretty high rung because Malcolm was following his protocol for when anyone comes looking for Albany. I think that reason is linked to that fact that he knows that it is just a deterrent. Seems to me that one way to "counter terrorism" is to threaten the release a very horrific agent that is genetically altered to target specific populations. He could use that in his bag of tricks for "negotiation." This idea was explored with the parocycybin of 9.3 which is a deterrent as well. As long as the FSB *thinks* that the AFF has it, the AFF is safe.

In the real world, it is actually reasonably common knowledge that while it *could* work, it doesn't/can't/shouldn't for a few reasons. The first are the obvious ethical, legal and social issues (ELSI). Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Denmark, European Union, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Netherlands, Russia, Sweden, United Kingdom, and the United States are all part of this ELSI discussion. The second reason is that, from what I have read, it takes a pretty genetically homogenous population which is hard to find these days. And lastly, I question if the analysis of the HGP has moved far enough forward in the 8 years since finishing simply mapping the human genome to make it feasible. I struggle with these ideas a bit because I think that Ruth (at least) would have known all this. Even if in as general a way as I do. (So if anyone knows better, please say so. I am no expert. All I know I picked up through my own research of my own daughters genetic disorder.) However, another clearly established construct is the team taking Harry at face value until their need-to-know requires it, so I accept it, as Silktie says, as "dramatic license."

Since Spooks works on the worst case scenario premise, that is not to say that any of the countries who have access to the information may not be trying on their own under the radar. News reports? "Not always accurate."

I may have missed this, but do we know if it was the British Government that developed this weapon? I can't remember what Harry said in that team briefing. If not, then it is possible Harry stole it or took it from some terrorists that were developing it. More to the point, why did he have that fake one ready in his magic safe? Heaven knows what is kept in those cupboards behind his desk also. There's probably a cruise missile hidden in there. As for why Albany was hidden under that church alter, I have no idea, but I liked seeing Harry on his knees.

So did I - Harry on his knees, I mean!!!

I think we must remeber what Peter Firth said - it is fiction and meant to be entertainment.
I have been involved with the foreign office and I think this is all fascinating fun, like good farce it has to be based on fact, where it goes after that is the fun.

When he pulled back the magic carpet in the crypt I thought for a minute, I was watching the Da Vinci Code. But yes, Harry on his knees was a sight to enjoy.