I'm not sure I've read all of this thread, but I'll go ahead and jump in anyway.

I decided to watch series 7 through 9 of Spooks last weekend... needless to say, I didn't sleep much! After the initial interest in the characters of Roz, Jo and Adam, my hopes were dashed somewhat when they were killed off. Luckily, I was left with Lucas - his character had so much potential right from the get-go. There is so much history to explore within that man, and in saying that...

I think series 9 was a horrible let-down.

Throughout series 7 and 8, things had been slowly revealed about Lucas' past. The flashbacks of torture, the reminders of his previous life before he was captured in the form of Elizabeta, the tattoos and his mannerisms in general were all slowly revealing more and more about his troubled character. Then in series 9, we are suddenly expected to believe that almost everything he had ever done or said had been a lie...?

I think most plot holes have already been well and truly blasted apart by you guys (you're very thorough), but what got me the most was the lack of proper psychological development on Lucas' part. He went from being slightly troubled in that he was experiencing flashbacks, and being triggered by certain faces/words/actions, to being unable to cope at all with his life all because of one girl... who seemed to have absolutely no relevance to his life whatsoever! Maya was just such a pointless character. As far as I have gathered, she was married to Vaughn, and yet Vaughn was quite happy for her and Lucas to 'be together' as long as he received Albany. There was never any explanation as to exactly what Maya meant to Lucas. Was she supposed to be an old girlfriend? That wouldn't make sense in my mind. The fact that he transitioned from Elizabeta to Sarah quite quickly can at least be explained by his need to 'feel close' to people, but this sudden transition of affections to a woman who he hasn't known for 20 years (or whatever it was)? He never mentioned her, surely if she had had THAT big an impact on him he would have seen something which would have triggered that memory (if he had suppressed it), seeing as a number of other memories seem to come flooding back very quickly for him - which should be even more likely due to his apparent photographic memory.

I also hated the way that Lucas claimed he "deserved" those 8 years in Russia, after throughout the past 2 series he had been telling the team every so often that he "spent 8 years in a Russian cell", "did 8 years for this", etc. It seems odd that he would go from thinking his torture was completely unfair and undeserved to completely fair and deserved just like that.

The fact that a photo of the real Lucas North still existed on MI5's files can be somewhat explained... I seem to remember the photo was from a 'community club' registration, which is something that could potentially have been missed. However if Beth was able to pull up that information within minutes... why wouldn't Lucas have done?

I understand that people can be good at constructing lies and making them believable even to themselves, but this series took that concept way too far. There is no way that Lucas could have acted all of that. It's just ridiculous.

I have noticed that throughout the 3 series, Lucas' flats had less and less personal possessions in them... his first flat was covered in books and paintings, whilst his most recent only had one book according to the team. Could that be a hint at him attempting to escape himself?

Other things that irritated me were the lack of character development for Tariq, Beth and Dmitri. I think Tariq is underused as a resource particularly in this series, at least in series 8 he got a regular stream of abuse about his outfit choices!
Beth and Dmitri are promising characters, but I don't think we were actually told anything much about Dmitri, and Beth was forgotten about after two episodes. They definitely have potential, and I can see Beth stepping up into that "alpha female" role in the future... but she needs way more development! As much as I love Lucas' character, he was focused on far too much (and they focused on completely the wrong things anyway), so that the others didn't really get a word in edgeways.
I did enjoy the development between Ruth and Harry though That was nice. I hope things work out for Ruth, because she's the only person there sometimes who stops to think about how their choices affect real people. There was a nice quote from her, something along the lines of "Sorry, I'm not used to the idea of using people as chess pieces". Chilling!

The final episode was carried out poorly... that's all I can bring myself to say. I think the ending was left open, I can contrive a number of conceivable ways in which Lucas could have survived, and if RA's schedule allows it I would love to see him come back - if only so that the writers would have to explain this terrible plot!

(Sorry for the essay, and I hope I managed to contribute something without just rambling aimlessly).

Great summary, Byatil. I hadn't picked up about Lucas's "deserved 8 years" as opposed to what he said in other series. You are so right.

I totally agree with you, Byatil. I hated the Lucas storyline. It did overshadow the development of Beth, Dimitri and Tariq. If these characters are to be in series 10, then we are going to need to know a lot more about them.

I also believe that series 9 was a let down, I thought we were going to find out more about Lucas and his past, but instead we were told about some fictitious character called John.

While i enjoyed series 9,how could i not enjoy a brand new Spooks, i to was dissapointed by the whole Lucas/John story line.Everything we were asked to believe in in series 7 and 8 about this character was turned on its head.As for the new characters of Beth and Dimitri a very long way to go i think .The scenes betweem Lucas and Ruth in ep8 were so good they made me cry well done NW AND RA.Having spent a lot of time shouting at the tv at Lucas not to betray his country for that woman Maya,Harry does the same for Ruth. I am all for true love but really!Did they have to make Lucas so evil still in shock.

I think it must be quite difficult to be a writer especially when an actor has another part which will clash with filming Spooks and when you have a history that you need to tie in with. Actors / actresses can't all leave the same way (killed by bombs for example!) and this was original. It isn't beyond belief that someone with Lucas' past could be that screwed up and I should imagine that anyone in a Russian cell for 8 years would be desperate to have love in his life. The storyline did keep us guessing about whether he was really bad etc and the ending was great - Lucas overcame John and did the right thing. Most importantly it gave RA full scope to show his talents in this series, alternating between good and bad, and he did it brilliantly.
It is TV and is supposed to be entertaining and I think this series did entertain us. It certainly kept us watching and has given lots of talking points ! Yes, there are mistakes and holes in the story line but there are plenty of things in real life that are unbelievable as well !

(17-11-2010 01:42 PM)harrbd Wrote:  I think it must be quite difficult to be a writer especially when an actor has another part which will clash with filming Spooks and when you have a history that you need to tie in with. Actors / actresses can't all leave the same way (killed by bombs for example!) and this was original. It isn't beyond belief that someone with Lucas' past could be that screwed up and I should imagine that anyone in a Russian cell for 8 years would be desperate to have love in his life. The storyline did keep us guessing about whether he was really bad etc and the ending was great - Lucas overcame John and did the right thing. Most importantly it gave RA full scope to show his talents in this series, alternating between good and bad, and he did it brilliantly.
It is TV and is supposed to be entertaining and I think this series did entertain us. It certainly kept us watching and has given lots of talking points ! Yes, there are mistakes and holes in the story line but there are plenty of things in real life that are unbelievable as well !

They could have gone with the same ending but tie it into the history of Lucas's past rather than creating this new persona of John. They could have used already stated history and dig deeper into the past that a lot of fans wanted to explore and see, instead they came up with a strange-full-of-holes-and-contradictions plotline that hardly made much sense.

My issue is not that this wasn't original or that Lucas didn't die a hero. He could have still died a broken and shattered man without this whole John-thing! They could have used his prison years in Russia as the foundation for this change or show how his psyche was messed up by what happened. However original this storyline may be (and it's not that original), they could have easily gone with a storyline that actually delve into untapped character potential and kept the credibility and integrity of the character instead of making him a coward and destroying every good thing he's ever done, and twisting everything that had meaning and significance in Series 7 and 8 into something dark and twisted.

It is not hard to tie in a good credible history for the character, nor is it hard for writers to deal with filming conflicts, and for a role that RA would be doing in the Hobbit, the writers would have at least gotten a heads up that he could possibly end up on that film, and even then, a credible storyline can easily be made up. I am a writer myself, and from my point of view, it just seemed that the writers instead of wanting to take the effort to tie in already stated history into a working storyline, they just went with the more sensational, fanciful, and shocking storyline.

To me, it just didn't work. I've never seen a storyline with so many holes in it, and I've watched a lot of TVs and written many stories. There easily could have been a more exciting and plausible story about Lucas that equally give RA the material that he can show his range with. If even I can think of it and be able to work it out, then I see no reason why the writers can't take the effort to.

(17-11-2010 01:59 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(17-11-2010 01:42 PM)harrbd Wrote:  I think it must be quite difficult to be a writer especially when an actor has another part which will clash with filming Spooks and when you have a history that you need to tie in with. Actors / actresses can't all leave the same way (killed by bombs for example!) and this was original. It isn't beyond belief that someone with Lucas' past could be that screwed up and I should imagine that anyone in a Russian cell for 8 years would be desperate to have love in his life. The storyline did keep us guessing about whether he was really bad etc and the ending was great - Lucas overcame John and did the right thing. Most importantly it gave RA full scope to show his talents in this series, alternating between good and bad, and he did it brilliantly.
It is TV and is supposed to be entertaining and I think this series did entertain us. It certainly kept us watching and has given lots of talking points ! Yes, there are mistakes and holes in the story line but there are plenty of things in real life that are unbelievable as well !

They could have gone with the same ending but tie it into the history of Lucas's past rather than creating this new persona of John. They could have used already stated history and dig deeper into the past that a lot of fans wanted to explore and see, instead they came up with a strange-full-of-holes-and-contradictions plotline that hardly made much sense.

My issue is not that this wasn't original or that Lucas didn't die a hero. He could have still died a broken and shattered man without this whole John-thing! They could have used his prison years in Russia as the foundation for this change or show how his psyche was messed up by what happened. However original this storyline may be (and it's not that original), they could have easily gone with a storyline that actually delve into untapped character potential and kept the credibility and integrity of the character instead of making him a coward and destroying every good thing he's ever done, and twisting everything that had meaning and significance in Series 7 and 8 into something dark and twisted.

It is not hard to tie in a good credible history for the character, nor is it hard for writers to deal with filming conflicts, and for a role that RA would be doing in the Hobbit, the writers would have at least gotten a heads up that he could possibly end up on that film, and even then, a credible storyline can easily be made up. I am a writer myself, and from my point of view, it just seemed that the writers instead of wanting to take the effort to tie in already stated history into a working storyline, they just went with the more sensational, fanciful, and shocking storyline.

To me, it just didn't work. I've never seen a storyline with so many holes in it, and I've watched a lot of TVs and written many stories. There easily could have been a more exciting and plausible story about Lucas that equally give RA the material that he can show his range with. If even I can think of it and be able to work it out, then I see no reason why the writers can't take the effort to.

I wholeheartly agree, it's not that we couldn't see, (or for that matter, accept)that Lucas was messed up and that he probaly would end up dead, it's just that the storyline of John came from nowhere! His relation to Maya was as flat as a pancake and he himself was so unnecessary, they could easily used Lucas' past in order to write out his troubled mind and the choices he eventualy made. In fact, instead of making things easier for themselves, I think the writers made it more hard on themselves by creating this whole nonsens storyline, which they, indeed, finaly couldn't get out of in a decent way. So they chose a plot that lacked everything in terms of believability and cincerity, almost like Spooks is an ordinary soap, where you don't ask yourself too much questions when you watch it!
Lack of time or the fact that an actor has other things to do, should never be an excuse for messy writing, they could have waited a couple of weeks before airing S9 to insure the continuaty of the story, and I'm sure they could come to an agreement with the actors and producers involved to delaye other filming, I mean everbody likes to be able to be proud of what they do, no?
P.S. I'm sorry if my English isn't quite good! Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

I agree with pretty much everything said above ^

I'm a 16 year old girl, and I could think of a hundred different ways they could have written Lucas out... without the ridiculous nonsensical plot-line and without ruining all the work the previous writers had done building up his character. To be honest, by the time Lucas had disappeared... I just didn't really care. You're supposed to feel something when a well-liked, interesting character leaves a show. It was heart-wrenching watching Roz realise that she'd have to shoot Jo, and equally horrible realising that Roz would have to die for the sake of her country. I even found Adam's death sad - and I'd only seen him in action for 1 episode!

I just think it could have been handled a LOT better :/ I really hope there is some kind of alternate ending somewhere (maybe the other ending was more definite? It is always possible that they had to make the ending a little more open to interpretation as it became apparent RA -might- return?), because this one disappointed me so much. After the brilliant writing from series 7 and 8, this one just pales in comparison. The acting was outstanding, but it couldn't redeem the script for me

(15-11-2010 05:50 PM)femaleBertieWooster Wrote:  Looking forward to Binkie's dissertation in the Lucas thread. (Are you an English teacher a philosopher or psychology prof Binkie?)

None of the above. History, I’m afraid. Even worse ... History of Ideas. Any questions about the manifestation of evolutionary theory in 19th-century visual culture, I’m the woman of the moment!!

(16-11-2010 11:59 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I have noticed that throughout the 3 series, Lucas' flats had less and less personal possessions in them... his first flat was covered in books and paintings, whilst his most recent only had one book according to the team. Could that be a hint at him attempting to escape himself?

I'm really glad you've raised the question of Lucas' possessions, Byatil. This is yet another area where, it seems to me, the writing/production team behind seasons 7 and 8 had some kind of coherent plan for the realisation of this theme and what it meant for the character, and which season 9 simply up-ended in service of an unsustainable plot direction.

In 7.2, we see Lucas physically in the middle of the life, formerly his, that is being unpacked from the boxes in which they have been stored for the last eight years. He agrees with the lady who brings him macaroons (we will assume he has his suspicions about her, as he must do about more or less everything at this stage) that it is odd “seeing your life in boxes.” There is a horribly bleak edge to this line, both in the writing and in the utterance. Lucas is trying so hard to engage in small talk, but the skill is rusty after eight years of minimal use. He has to drag the very idea of offering a cup of tea from some neglected compartment of his social awareness. It is evident in the way he looks back into the room and closes his eyes before reassuring himself, and his prospective guest, that he probably “has a kettle here somewhere.” The mundane quality of this exchange serves to highlight the very real distance between Lucas and the world at this point, even though the world is really just a series of rooms filled with what anyone else would describe as possessions.

The only time we see him responding to the contents of the boxes is when he hangs, and straightens, the Blake prints over the mantelpiece. Everything else either stays in its box or is extracted and discarded. No attempt is made to re-engage with these other objects. They belong to someone who no longer exists, and has no need of them. The use he finds for his pre-prison life is tragic and telling: he uses it to expose the insecurity of his post-release reality. He strews the books and photographs and CDs (music he no longer hears?) in a calculatedly haphazard way around the flat in order to trap whoever tries to come near him. Ros is clever enough to recognise the trap. Somebody else might not have been.

When next we see Lucas at home, for a short scene in 7.5, and then again - for slightly longer - in 7.7, all the objects from the boxes are gone. What remains is purely functional.

We don’t see Lucas at home again until 8.4, by which point he appears to have moved house. The decor and the layout of this new flat are starkly institutional. Everything is at right angles. Everything has a purpose. Even the plant looks like the kind of greenery you see in banks and offices, installed so as to make the place look more welcoming and less blatantly corporate. It seems to me that the clear intention of the production at this point, in showing the diminishing progression in Lucas’ domestic arrangements, is not that Lucas is trying consciously to rid himself of any indicators of a personality. Rather, that he is separated not only from the person he was before prison, but from the person he is trying so hard to be: the person who has left prison, and the experience of prison, in the past. There is, I think, an important conclusion being drawn here on the part of the production. Lucas is not trying to forget who he was, neither is he having trouble remembering who he was. He is, rather more desperately, horribly aware that the person he was no longer exists, and cannot be called back into existence by the contents of some plastic storage boxes. There is a huge, and vital, difference between this line of interest and the somewhat clumsy logic used in season 9 to explain the absence of personal clutter.

You're not the only person here releasing their inner essay monster

(17-11-2010 11:12 PM)binkie Wrote:  There is, I think, an important conclusion being drawn here on the part of the production. Lucas is not trying to forget who he was, neither is he having trouble remembering who he was. He is, rather more desperately, horribly aware that the person he was no longer exists, and cannot be called back into existence by the contents of some plastic storage boxes. There is a huge, and vital, difference between this line of interest and the somewhat clumsy logic used in season 9 to explain the absence of personal clutter.

You're not the only person here releasing their inner essay monster

Everything you wrote makes a lot of sense, but that point^ in particular is very telling. It did seem like he was desperately attempting to latch onto other people in order to feel more 'normal', and was engrossing himself in his work because it was the only place he truly felt safe. It makes more sense as to why he would allow Olgen (...was that his name? The Russian prison guard) into his flat - it wasn't necessarily a sign of stockholm syndrome, but perhaps more the fact that Lucas had nothing personal to lose, and that there was nothing else to know about him.

I suppose his tattoos also contribute towards this - he has some meaningful imagery stuck on his body, so I think it's safe to assume he wouldn't feel it a terrible loss to lose the Blake painting he admired so much, for example.

It's definitely very interesting that Lucas' character never really moved forward, in a way. He was unable to let go of his past, and I know I noticed him mentioning his stint in Russia more than was strictly necessary - yet he was desperate to get straight back to work. Almost as if he felt the need to prove to himself that he could cope, and be "one of the best" again. His personal-identity at that point seems to be based purely on how he performs at work, and how he interacts with those around him. It'd be easier to 'fit in' with the grid, seeing as none of them seem to have any real friends outside of work, and rarely have time for family.

Which reminds me, Lucas mentioned his father was a minister at one point - relevant information, or was it just a lie?

Just seems sad/strange in a way that no-one really noticed this behaviour. Once Lucas 'loses it', Harry immediately seems to comment on Lucas' "fragile state of mind", yet I don't remember him mentioning this before...? It's strange that it would take that amount of prompting to realise just how damaged Lucas was, unless the point being made is that they're all far too engrossed in their work to pay attention to individuals. Which explains why Lucas went to Ruth - apparently the only person there who understood how MI5's actions affected ordinary people.

Essays on Spooks are lovably bearable If only my A-level coursework were this interesting!