(18-11-2010 06:26 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(18-11-2010 10:49 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  ( c ) replace Maya with a cardboard cutout - no difference and cheaper [on a hugely cynical note - he doesn't notice she's dead/dying for a while...who would?]

This made my day! She really was a very badly planned device. I'm not even going to call her a character, she was purely a device which had no real use whatsoever. It would have made more sense for Lucas to have been in love with Vaughn, honestly.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry, that had me burst out laughing and wake my roommate!

LOL! Let's bring on the Bromance!!!!

(18-11-2010 06:34 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(18-11-2010 06:26 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(18-11-2010 10:49 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  ( c ) replace Maya with a cardboard cutout - no difference and cheaper [on a hugely cynical note - he doesn't notice she's dead/dying for a while...who would?]

This made my day! She really was a very badly planned device. I'm not even going to call her a character, she was purely a device which had no real use whatsoever. It would have made more sense for Lucas to have been in love with Vaughn, honestly.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry, that had me burst out laughing and wake my roommate!

LOL! Let's bring on the Bromance!!!!

Lucas always seemed to care far more about the men in his life than the women... I mean, look what happened to Elizabeta and Sarah.

We can totally ship Lucas and Vaughn... it was all just a sordid love affair!

(18-11-2010 06:26 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(18-11-2010 10:49 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  ( c ) replace Maya with a cardboard cutout - no difference and cheaper [on a hugely cynical note - he doesn't notice she's dead/dying for a while...who would?]

This made my day! She really was a very badly planned device. I'm not even going to call her a character, she was purely a device which had no real use whatsoever. It would have made more sense for Lucas to have been in love with Vaughn, honestly.

I laughed first, but that really is a far more feasible idea. I like it.

(18-11-2010 06:36 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Lucas always seemed to care far more about the men in his life than the women... I mean, look what happened to Elizabeta and Sarah.

We can totally ship Lucas and Vaughn... it was all just a sordid love affair!

Don't forget, Lucas did say that he and Harry were a "sexual thing"

Harry/Lucas and Vaughn/Lucas.....ohhhhhhhhhh!!!! Me likey the Bromance!

Harry, Lucas and Vaughn love triangle...probably more believable than Lucas and Maya !!

Totally different subject...
Why did Lucas have a different style of clothes when he was with Maya? He was always 'scruffy' with Maya but smart all the other times? Am I missing some deep and meaningful reason for this?

(19-11-2010 12:25 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Totally different subject...
Why did Lucas have a different style of clothes when he was with Maya? He was always 'scruffy' with Maya but smart all the other times? Am I missing some deep and meaningful reason for this?

I think that's a good question!
I didn't took notice of it when I watched the series, but you are right about the difference in style between Lucas and John.
Maybe it was meant to emphasize- to us, the viewers- the difference in character between John and Lucas, Lucas being the impecable, brave, trustworthy MI5-officer and John being the guy you just can't trust. It's always easier to believe and to confide in a person who is sharply dressed and nicely groomed (we live in a very shallow society, i'm afraid) than to put your trust into someone who's just a notch up from a vagabond (very brutally put, I admit).
Maybe it was also ment as a picturisation of the turmoil in Lucas' brain, he held on to the way people knew him by means of clothing: sharp, to the point, no nonsens, forthright, solid and honourable, as Lucas; but with Maya, he was John and very confused in his mind, he didn't really know who he was and who he longed to be -John or Lucas-, he was about to betray his fellow officers and country - even the world- and so his clothes and style were equally 'disturbed' and bewildered.
( I think????)
But maybe it's just a coincidence and we're over-annalising everything about Spooks

(19-11-2010 12:25 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Harry, Lucas and Vaughn love triangle...probably more believable than Lucas and Maya !!

Totally different subject...
Why did Lucas have a different style of clothes when he was with Maya? He was always 'scruffy' with Maya but smart all the other times? Am I missing some deep and meaningful reason for this?

Much as I hate to engage with season 9 in the way the show would like us to (as though it was a good and sensible thing): I rather took the clothing choices to indicate that 'John' could be 'himself' with Maya because she had known him before Dakar, when he was young, and before he was corrupted. He wears the clothes he would have worn as a student, when he and Maya were at Leeds together, and when he was still a person who did not require saving from himself.

I'm afraid, hardened cynic that I am, that I believe the reason John and Lucas had noticeably seperate wardrobes was rather more simplistic. I think the producers wanted a simple visual delineation between the two characters, making it easier for the audience to tell when he was being Lucas as opposed to being John, because they underestimated their audience's intelligence (always a mistake!) or worse still for me, they didn't have enough faith in Richard's ability to tell us who he was by his acting skill alone (shame on them). I had no difficulty telling them apart. The way RA behaved, moved, spoke - all were noticeably dfferent for J/L so anyone with half a brain could tell them apart. I think this was his greatest triumph in this series.

Someone pointed out in an earlier post about the increasingly impersonal quality of Lucas's living accommodation as the 3 series progressed. I admit I had thought along those lines myself at the time but had completely forgotten about it until someone else pointed it out. Now that I think about it I become convinced that they had planned Lucas's disintegration for some time, they just hadn't decided how to write it. They probably threw it out to the writers to see what they came up with. Sadly, they should have sent them back to the drawing board because what they came up with just didn't work.

There were elements of the story which could have gelled with what we knew about Lucas from S7 and 8. I could totally buy the idea that he had done something shocking and stupid in his youth and had covered it up. His subsequent loyalty to MI5 wouldn't be inconsistent with someone who had seen the error of his ways. The zeal of the convert etc. What I can't accept is that he would jeopardise it all for Maya. He has never shown any signs of a tendency to betray his principles for personal reasons. I know he said to Sarah "take me with you" but surely that was just to buy himself time so she didn't shoot him. Once he realised the full horror of her belief system he was disgusted by her.

The whole John arc would have worked better if it had been applied to a newly introduced character with no established back story. Lucas had too much character development which was then contradicted by John. What the writers were allowed to do to Lucas was just plain dishonest.

(19-11-2010 02:51 PM)KitKat385 Wrote:  Speaking of Lucas's flat - all they found was that book by William Blake. Wasn't that the author Lucas liked back in S7? The one the tattoo on his chest is related to?

The are others who know much more than I do re: how Wm Blake relates to Lucas but I do know that the tatoo on Lucas' chest titled The Ancient of Days AKA God as the Architect. I think the significance of Blake's poems is as simple as his most famous poetry: Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience. Don't think I have to spell either out more than that.

This is the last poem in Songs of Experience:

THE VOICE OF THE ANCIENT BARD

Youth of delight! come hither
And see the opening morn,
Image of Truth new-born.
Doubt is fled, and clouds of reason,
Dark disputes and artful teazing.
Folly is an endless maze;
Tangled roots perplex her ways;
How many have fallen there!
They stumble all night over bones of the dead;
And feel--they know not what but care;
And wish to lead others, when they should be led.

I quite liked that aspect of it all.