(19-11-2010 02:51 PM)KitKat385 Wrote:  Speaking of Lucas's flat - all they found was that book by William Blake. Wasn't that the author Lucas liked back in S7? The one the tattoo on his chest is related to?

Yep, that's correct. I'm afraid I can't remember what the book was, but it was mentioned that Lucas felt an affinity with Blake in regards to his perspective on things?

Quote:The earlier work is primarily rebellious in character, and can be seen as a protestation against dogmatic religion. This is especially notable in The Marriage of Heaven and Hell in which Satan is virtually the hero rebelling against an imposter authoritarian deity. In the later works such as Milton and Jerusalem, Blake carves a distinctive vision of a humanity redeemed by self-sacrifice and forgiveness, while retaining his earlier negative attitude towards what he felt was the rigid and morbid authoritarianism of traditional religion. Not all readers of Blake agree upon how much continuity exists between Blake's earlier and later works.

^from Wikipedia

So I assume the Blake book was a hint at Lucas' attempt to "redeem" himself through "self-sacrifice" and earn "forgiveness" for his actions in the past. If you look at it in those terms, it does make some sense that Blake would be his favourite poet/author. It also relates to the fact Lucas mentioned his father was a minister - hinting that he distanced himself from his parents religious beliefs?

Just rewatching S7 and something occurred to me...

People have pointed to Lucas' speech to Connie about loyalty and said that it doesn't gel with his actions at the end of S9 and his past.

I don't think Lucas actually betrayed Britain (well, with the small exception of blowing up the embassy in '95). Sure he lied and deceived MI5, but at what point did he actually betray them?

(19-11-2010 03:37 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  The are others who know much more than I do re: how Wm Blake relates to Lucas but I do know that the tatoo on Lucas' chest titled The Ancient of Days AKA God as the Architect. I think the significance of Blake's poems is as simple as his most famous poetry: Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience. Don't think I have to spell either out more than that.

This is the last poem in Songs of Experience:

THE VOICE OF THE ANCIENT BARD

Youth of delight! come hither
And see the opening morn,
Image of Truth new-born.
Doubt is fled, and clouds of reason,
Dark disputes and artful teazing.
Folly is an endless maze;
Tangled roots perplex her ways;
How many have fallen there!
They stumble all night over bones of the dead;
And feel--they know not what but care;
And wish to lead others, when they should be led.

I quite liked that aspect of it all.

Waw, that's a beautiful poem!
And, as you say A Cousin, there are others who can ellaberate more than we about the relation between Blake and Lucas' state of mind, but it's really not hard to recognise the turmoil and lonleyness that he must have felt (and wish to lead others, when they should be led).
Thanks for sharing this with us!

(19-11-2010 06:53 PM)Belle Wrote:  Waw, that's a beautiful poem!
And, as you say A Cousin, there are others who can ellaberate more than we about the relation between Blake and Lucas' state of mind, but it's really not hard to recognise the turmoil and lonleyness that he must have felt (and wish to lead others, when they should be led).
Thanks for sharing this with us!

Alright, so I looked around a little, and I guess in one episode Elizabeta says that Lucas likes Blake so much partially because they both distrust systems. That works for S7 because MI5 hadn't really accepted him back yet. Blake probably works for all the other reasons that have been mentioned too

Again, A Cousin, thanks for sharing that poem!

I’ve been threatening to post in this thread for a while, so here goes. This is in partial response to points raised by Byatil and Belle in the ‘How did you feel about season 9?’ thread. I will probably return to their observations in another (hopefully shorter) post, as they have significance for the story of Lucas across seasons 7 and 8. In this post, though, I want to set out some parameters of the importance of the portrayal of the character on his first appearance. I will not be making any effort to interleave the content of season 9 into any observation I make. Apart from anything else, it would become very boring for me to have to keep writing (and for you to have to keep reading) disclaimers as to the irreconcilable nature of the character treatments between seasons 7/8 and season 9. Suffice it to say, there is no John in the Lucas I am describing. Some people may wish to leave now!

I have to begin with an apology, because I distinctly recall reading a discussion on this forum about the scene in 7.1 between Harry and Lucas in the washroom. I have just spent an hour searching for that discussion and cannot find it again. So, I’m sorry if anybody reading this is thinking, “Didn’t I say this already?” Yes, you probably did!

I have said before that criticism of, or indifference towards, Richard Armitage’s performance in this part surprises me. To me, this seems an extraordinarily subtle rendering of a character who could so easily have been set aside in a box labelled “PTSD for television”, but was instead imbued with a complex inner life, and an understated means of expression, that underlined the dramatic bravery of the decision to feature in a prime time high-concept production someone whose recent life experiences are so unfamiliar – so utterly inconceivable – to the vast majority of the audience. Spooks, in deciding on a period of detention for Lucas of eight years did a genuinely remarkable thing. Eight years is a long time in a human life. At the time of his release (assuming Lucas to be about the same age as Richard Armitage), it would have amounted to approximately one fifth of the character’s life to date. This is not a detail to be ridden over. Two years, even four or five, might have been more comprehensible – more readily acceptable – to viewers’ sensibilities of bounded time. Eight years sounds dangerously close to a decade. This is a different kind of chronological limit, the kind that measures passages, rather than moments, of time. Lucas has been markedly absent from the context to which he is being returned. We need to feel that absence, and the effects of that absence, in the character’s suddenly-restored presence, and Armitage makes sure we do.

The first time we see Lucas, we do not even know his name. This is a fundamental kind of absence in itself. He is anonymous, even as he is present at his own return to life, deaf and blind under a hood, invisible like a mourner at a funeral. He resists removal from the car, and struggles against the efforts of others to orient him in a scene to which he is oblivious. When the hood is removed, he hesitates in the beam of headlights before focusing on what is in front of him. We actually see his vision coming into focus; we see him seeing; we see him begin to comprehend. We hear him take a breath that is almost tangibly a substitute for speech (this will be so important for the character in later episodes). We see him unclench a fist and reach out to the other car, almost as though, if he can touch it, it will be real. We have to wonder how often he has had this dream. All these moments and gestures are so little and real, so terribly affecting in their quality of unconscious rendition. Everything about Lucas’ response to this new reality communicates his reluctance to accept it as reality and, at the same time, his refusal to inhabit this moment as yet another dream.

This clever duality of purpose is present in Armitage’s performance throughout this episode. It is there in the way he sits, slumped in the back seat of the car, exhausted and defeated, but with his eyes fixed on the world moving past the window, keeping it real and in focus. It is there in the way he greets the people he meets on this strange night with such childlike politeness and deference, looking directly at each person, committing their faces to memory, so that if this is a dream, at least there will be something he can take from it. It is there in the way he takes his cue from Connie that his renewed presence – proving the previous absence – is difficult for others to accommodate, so he must act on their awkwardness: “...they have mattresses and everything.” It is there in the way he drops his gaze when Adam mentions a day spent “in the boot of a car”, in the way he radiates the humiliation of his impotency in that recent moment, and in the way he rallies almost immediately to the defence of his own ability to contribute. He is determined to be right in remembering that he once had value in this place.

It is in the washroom scene, though, that we begin fully to appreciate what absence means – and has meant – to both Lucas and Harry. I have watched this scene so many times, and never fail to be moved by it. I think it is the quietness of it, the minute sadness of it, that makes it so memorable. I know that a proper analysis of this scene belongs in the Harry and Lucas thread, but I will try to maintain attention on Lucas for the sake of this post. Here we see for the second time in this episode Lucas’ qualities as a quick learner. He steps into the silence left by Harry’s awkwardness over the starkly alien tattooing, and the reason for its existence. His clumsy, half-remembered, effort at small talk – asking about Tom Quinn - is only a brief deflection from his next question: “How did you get me back, Harry?” This feels like an early test of Harry’s sense of any responsibility for what happened eight years before. What Lucas really wants is an explanation, a justification, a sense of Harry’s awareness of his part in the awful absence of the last eight years. Everything about this question, the way it is asked, the tone of voice, the way Lucas turns to face Harry in this moment, is a component of the question Lucas really wants to ask: “Why did you leave me there?” Harry, though, isn’t going to play that game, and moves to stop Lucas taking the next turn in it.

Lucas’ response to Harry’s practiced introduction of pastoral care underlines the terrible vulnerability of a man so newly restored to life. Armitage communicates so completely and so delicately the rawness and uncertainty and desperate isolation of Lucas in his own life in this moment. The bitterness and contempt with which he utters the line: “Welcome home to a safe house with a stained mattress and nylon sheets”, gives way at once to an almost delirious attempt at a kind of gallows humour about the only TV show he can imagine might still be doing the rounds after all this time. From here, Lucas tries to take back control of this opportunity to do something, to mean something. He asks directly, confrontationally: “Where do I go, Harry? What am I supposed to do when I get there?” But the demand very quickly becomes a plea as Lucas’ vocal tone and facial expression transition to communicate the unbearable dilemma of someone who is so alienated from his own capacity for self-determination that he cannot leave a conversation without receiving an instruction. Lucas is both full of need and entirely empty of autonomy as he concludes: “Just tell me, and I’ll go and I’ll do it.” Then Harry makes him real again by giving him temporary security clearance, and he returns to himself, trying to re-establish a connection to the world by asking after his ex-wife. Harry, of course, will have no part in the effort, departing the room with what he presumably imagines to be a reassurance: “You were missed.” Lucas stands in the middle of the floor, alone in the room, opening and closing his fists, shouting silently after Harry: “You left me there...” It is an extraordinary portrayal of a simultaneous sense of desolate abandonment and an inexpressible need to reverse an absence he himself barely understands.

The next few hours continue for Lucas under the same dream logic of the exchange at Bexley. He is given a coat, proof of the reality of the world, and he keeps it on because he is tired and cold even in this dream. He walks into the bedroom of a sleeping terrorist and his wife and plays ‘catch’ with a mobile ‘phone, because there is no reason a person in a dream would not do such a thing. He speaks Russian to an electrician from Walthamstow, cold cocks a would-be executioner and chases after a tiny female bomber. Then the dream ends: “Adam Carter is dead.” When next we see Lucas, we learn that, not only has he not yet woken from this dream, he has yet to sleep at all in this strange new world.

This is the beginning of the story to which we will now never know the end. Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?

Wow, binkie, what a great a thorough analysis! I've found that on forums, I tend to keep things shorter than when I ramble on in real life (granted, that normally ends up off topic...), but you went into every minute detail and explained it! Figured this might have taken you a little time, so you deserve some congrats

What is so amazing about RA's acting is that he puts in so many subtle little gestures that really build up his character - and a good chunk of it is ad-lib. He mentioned in one interview that the scene where he debated hanging himself (episode 8.4 I believe?) was all improv. The only line on the script was 'Lucas thinks about hanging himself'. He knows his character well enough to accurately portray what he thinks and how he responds, so much that we see Lucas as the complex person he is.

I recently watched season 7 all over (it got added to Netflix Instant Watch, so I had to celebrate haha), and you really pointed out all the minute areas that make the episode click. The whole thing seemed the usual cut-and-dry spy stuff to us, but Lucas floated through a little, quite shocked and unsure in several scenes.

When he mentioned (going from memory here, so sorry if I miss a couple words) "Those Russian prison are like holiday camps; they have mattresses and everything", but then had so much trouble sleeping, I felt such pity for Lucas. He's been through so much, and it's not referenced as heavily in S8 as the previous season (since by then we'd established 'Yeah, Lucas went through a crape-load of horrible stuff'), which tends to make me forget just how hard those eight years must have been (it's really scary to me as a viewer...it may be a fifth of his life but it'd be half of mine!). For Lucas to wake up in such a progression like you've pointed out brings it all back.

Wish I could argue (don't see where I could though), or go more in-depth on a point, but you covered a good deal of the bases! I'll just end pointing out: seeing all the brilliance and expectations season 7 had only serves to make season 9 seem worse We've been cheated out of a lot.

That is an absolutely fantastic analysis, thank-you for sharing that, seriously.

I think that scene is particularly poignant as well because Lucas is literally laying himself bare for Harry to see. The fact he's half-naked somewhat symbolises the fact that Lucas is desperate for Harry's trust, and that he really wants Harry to ask him questions, and to understand exactly what he's been through - I think he feels that if he can tell the story, as you've said, he can "wake up", and begin to deal with the events of the last 8 years. Harry abandoned him them, and he's metaphorically abandoning Lucas again - but emotionally this time. The fact that Lucas refuses to de-brief and wants to go straight back to work almost seems like a challenge to Harry (as well as to himself), I think he ultimately wants Harry to resist, and to force him into getting help; but equally feels that if Harry agrees to Lucas going back to work, it's a chance for him to gain Harry's trust again.
On a personal level, I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to have to work with someone who had the answers to all your niggling little questions, but was so reluctant to answer any of them. Harry is obviously an important person in Lucas' life in S7, as he has, after all, spent 8 years in Russia for the man... with apparently very little gratitude.

I love all the observations you've made about the car journey, and the tid-bits of small talk in 7.1. I've only seen the episode once, but I do remember how cleverly RA was acting his part - he's amazing at conveying very deep, underlying emotions. Even the way he asks for some fish and chips seems like an attempt to "fit in" again, to crack jokes and prove that he's coping well. The entire façade just makes me think that he desperately wanted Harry to actually pay attention to him after ignoring him for all those years, and to actually look at him. Perhaps Harry is too ashamed to admit what he has (inadvertently) done to Lucas at this point?

The thing about Lucas requiring commands is also very interesting, now that you've pointed it out I can remember pieces of the script where it was very apparent. It also slots in with his obsession over being logical and keeping things rather clinical, it just seems like classic institutionalised behaviour. I think we can see this clearly in his relationship with Sarah; he opens up to her yet he only really tells her things when she asks him to. She calls all the shots in their relationship, up until Lucas is dealing with her on a professional level, where he obviously feels more confident.

I probably have more to comment on but I'll leave it at that for now! Brilliant post Binkie, and yes... I do feel rather cheated out of the character I met in S7

Brilliant Binkie!

You gave a most amazing analysis of the one biggest reason that I have hated the plotline of Series 9 because it deprived us the viewers of the attempt to dig deeper into Lucas's psyche and how those 8 years in Russia have effected and changed him. I have always wanted them to go into that story, to tell what happened, and explore that past and the relationship of Harry and Lucas. Instead, I got the story of some crazy deranged man named John and the writers erased everything interesting and good about Lucas. They ruined those 8 years of ultimate sacrifice to his country and his team and turned it into a twisted sense of self-punishment!

I feel cheated indeed!

I was so excited when I heard Series 9 was gonna be about Lucas's past, here I thought we'd find out how Lucas was recruited, how his relationship with Harry began, and how his capture happened, and what made him who he is. But the writers ruined it all.

They had such a rich history and story potential to dig into with Lucas, instead they took the easy and more sensational fanciful story. It was stupid and lazy writing.

This is why my fanfic is going to explore much deeper into those 8 years of horror, how that effected Lucas's psyche and his relationship with Harry. If the writers won't give me that, then I will do it myself because I am tired of being cheated!

(20-11-2010 01:28 AM)KitKat385 Wrote:  I've found that on forums, I tend to keep things shorter than when I ramble on in real life (granted, that normally ends up off topic...)

Yes. I really need to get the hang of this whole "keeping it brief" thing! That's definitely a skill I'm missing. Everybody here seems very patient with me, though

(20-11-2010 01:28 AM)Byatil Wrote:  The entire façade just makes me think that he desperately wanted Harry to actually pay attention to him after ignoring him for all those years, and to actually look at him. Perhaps Harry is too ashamed to admit what he has (inadvertently) done to Lucas at this point?

I'm so glad you make this observation. For the longest time through season 9, I was convinced it would end with Harry killing Lucas: that this was the way we would be shown Harry finally looking at Lucas, finally choosing him. I can't say I was exactly delighted with what we got instead.

Byatil, I will definitely come back to what you have said before (and again here) about the many significances of the tattoos. There is actually a thread for Lucas and his tattoos. Between us, we can resurrect it!

(20-11-2010 02:09 AM)binkie Wrote:  I'm so glad you make this observation. For the longest time through season 9, I was convinced it would end with Harry killing Lucas: that this was the way we would be shown Harry finally looking at Lucas, finally choosing him. I can't say I was exactly delighted with what we got instead.

Byatil, I will definitely come back to what you have said before (and again here) about the many significances of the tattoos. There is actually a thread for Lucas and his tattoos. Between us, we can resurrect it!

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I wanted Harry to look Lucas in the eye and finally see what he had done, finally realise that his actions do affect real people, and that they aren't just there at his disposal. I was really hoping for some kind of epiphany from Harry on that part... he's always so cold and distant, in a way, and Ruth is the one person who seems to bring him down to Earth again. Whilst also being the one person who connects to people on a more emotional level than the others.

And yeah, I remember reading the tattoo thread because I wanted to know what some of Lucas' more obscure tattoos were meant to represent! I'll go and hunt it out again