(22-11-2010 10:40 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(22-11-2010 09:25 PM)Byatil Wrote:  The fact that Lucas seems reluctant to have Sarah "vetted" seems rather significant. Almost as if he doesn't want anything to cement their relationship?

The suggestion of wilful self-denial is an interesting theme to tease out in reference to this character in this relationship, I think. This is really the first time in Lucas' post-release narrative that we see him in the context of (what seemed to be at that stage in season 8) a successful interpersonal relationship outside of the "colleagues are okay" caveat. The idea that he would, however unconsciously, place obstacles of omission or inaction in the way of a kind of acknowledgement of that relationship tells us something quite profound about Lucas' state of mind. It really speaks to the extent to which he is unable to accept that he has moved from a condition of being required to deny any sort of desire - be it something as mundane as a cigarette or something as complete as a lover - to one of being able to act on that desire. What seems to scare him about this is, as you suggest, the fact that he might find he has what he wants. The emotional consequences of this are surely quite overwhelming for someone with Lucas' recent experience.

These are subtle and embedded notes to pick up on as you watch (especially if you are scribbling at the same time!). I can't wait to read what you make of the rest of this episode

Far more eloquently put than I could have managed! It is an interesting point, and I think it's another display of Lucas' desire to be controlled conflicting with his internal desire to have control. It's almost as if he can't quite convince himself that he has the capacity to be happy again.

Anyway, I've continued watching to the point where Lucas encounters Oleg.

I have to say, RA's acting in this episode is beyond superb. When he receives the flowers from Oleg and reads the card ("Grebe"), his facial expression is amazing. Despair, disbelief and just a pure sense of terror. Equally, when he first sees Dasharvin's face, there's just this look of complete confusion and horror. The torture scenes are especially haunting... it's just so strange, switching between Lucas as a fairly calm and controlled MI5 officer, and Lucas on the brink of breakdown as he has however many volts pumped through him. The stark contrast is just so shocking (no pun intended!).

I'm going to have to pick up on the little tale that Lucas tells us here; linking his personal life to his time in Russia. Something along the lines of "They used to take me for walks between sessions, the prison was surrounded by marshland. I'd tell Dasharvin about how me and my father would go bird-watching along the banks of the Thames Estuary when I was a child". Now, in relation to S9... surely Lucas can't be making this up as he goes along? So is it reasonable to presume that these little anecdotes of his are things which actually happened in John's past? Because surely there would be inconsistencies between where John grew up, and where the 'real' Lucas grew up? Just something that I was wondering when it was mentioned.

The first scene with Oleg is so poignant, once again, amazing acting from both men. The fact that Lucas immediately obeys orders given by Darsharvin is very telling, and shows a complete respect and submission towards him. We can also see this through the way Lucas strips and is left with no protection whatsoever when he faces his former captor. Actually, another interesting point is that when Lucas is first entering the stone building where he speaks with Dasharvin, he hesitates. I think the building is a representation of a prison cell - Lucas is forced into a confined space, where Dasharvan blocks the only exit. Very symbolic.

Lucas is shaking whilst he speaks on the phone to Dasharvin, another very telling sign of the power this man has over him. Lucas is being forced to return to the nightmares he's tried so hard to block out, and it's obviously having a very detrimental effect on him psychologically. When Lucas first faces Oleg, he's just completely void of expression, desperately trying to contain his emotions. There seem to be certain trigger-words which affect Lucas very visibly - most notably when Oleg says the words "little chat", and Lucas seems to be fighting back a flashback before we see another torture scene. It's so horrible to watch, and another example of RA's amazingly subtle techniques at conveying this characters emotions. There's this raging conflict between Lucas' personal relationship with Oleg, and his obligation to protect the country, and to do what's best for MI5.

At one point, Oleg says "And as you and I both know... no-one escapes from Roushanka." (sp? my knowledge of Russian is non-existent). Another brilliant piece of acting here, as Lucas' voice breaks slightly with his next question. RA really conveys the emotional struggle Lucas experiences throughout this scene as he fights away the flashbacks and attempts to stay in control as much as he possibly can, it's just amazing to watch if you really look closely.

After Lucas tells Oleg "We don't do deals." and Oleg replies "Well then you'll have to find the target on your own", we see another moment of self-defeat from Lucas, as he asks Oleg "Where do I go?" He seems torn between his loyalties to the team, and his relationship with Oleg. You really have to see the facial expressions to really understand what I'm talking about, haha. In this scene, actions very much speak louder than words.

The line "Show me respect" from Oleg is incredibly effective. Lucas seems to accept defeat at this point; I'm guessing these may be more trigger-words for him. The way he sits down and almost goes to put his head in his hands is just so moving. This truly is television at its best!

I also have to say that I love the choice of theme tune for Lucas. That Russian-folk sound, very eerie. This entire scene is just so well written, and so brilliantly acted. Gives me goosebumps every time.

(22-11-2010 04:02 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  There is no doubt that series 9 does not relate to series 7 & 8. The writers clearly know less about the character than us, the viewers.
I think the fact that Beth uncovered that photo of 'real' Lucas was a big flaw in the plot. Lucas was so good at his job he would certainly have erased every trace of the real Lucas.

I think the writers wanted us to feel the same sense of betrayal that the rest of the team felt, which worked very well. But you can't do that to an established character without a really excellent story and unfortunately this wasn't it.

I totally agree with your post like with so many others made to that point. It really seems the writers never watched a single episode of series 7 and 8, otherwise they wouldn't have come up with that nonsense.
And wasn't the photo Beth uncovered from a fitness studio membership? In Dakar in 1995? They still have all their members with photographs on computer files? Ok, I'm not so sure about that as I only watched that episode once and will never watch it again, but that's what I remember. And whenever I think of Spooks9 more plotholes come to my mind - hopefully I will have some time in the near future to make a very, very long list of them.
Oh well, for me the solution is quite easy - there is no John Bateman, there never was a John Bateman (unless as a cover-up name for Lucas North) and there never will be a John Bateman. There is only Lucas. He may be in trouble, but he remains Lucas, the Lucas we have come to love and respect and admire. Let's just forget about what those stupid writers were trying to tell us!
And having said that - I'm so much looking forward to your analysis of 8.4, Byatil!

(22-11-2010 11:20 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I'm going to have to pick up on the little tale that Lucas tells us here; linking his personal life to his time in Russia. Something along the lines of "They used to take me for walks between sessions, the prison was surrounded by marshland. I'd tell Dasharvin about how me and my father would go bird-watching along the banks of the Thames Estuary when I was a child". Now, in relation to S9... surely Lucas can't be making this up as he goes along? So is it reasonable to presume that these little anecdotes of his are things which actually happened in John's past? Because surely there would be inconsistencies between where John grew up, and where the 'real' Lucas grew up? Just something that I was wondering when it was mentioned.

I have to say, I'm disinclined even to try (or, really, to bother) back-lighting sesons 7/8 Lucas with season 9 'John'. It wasn't in the narrative, so it wasn't in the character. Taking this episode as part of the coherent narrative and character development of seasons 7/8 (those were the days!), Lucas is talking about something that he remembers. Actually, he is talking about a dual memory: the one in which he recalls something which occurred in his childhood or youth, and the one which recalls him sharing the memory of this with Oleg. It's difficult to know which of these memories is causing Lucas to smile, and that is just about every shade of disturbing.

(22-11-2010 11:20 PM)Byatil Wrote:  ... it's just amazing to watch if you really look closely.

I agree. I am often struck by the number of times an additional detail of character is communicated by this actor in something as seemingly irrelevant as an intake of breath or the flicker of an eyelid (look at the way he does this in 7.2 when he tells Malcolm: "I'm fine. I think." It alters absolutely the affected briskness of the line, and suggests that Lucas may not even be aware he has said this last part aloud). It really does surprise me when criticism attaches to the performance of this character.

(22-11-2010 11:20 PM)Byatil Wrote:  The line "Show me respect" from Oleg is incredibly effective. Lucas seems to accept defeat at this point; I'm guessing these may be more trigger-words for him. The way he sits down and almost goes to put his head in his hands is just so moving.

The suggestion of trigger words is a good one, especially in light of what you wrote earlier regarding the issue of trust between Lucas and Harry. Clearly, with the word "trust" being a keyword - a kind of trigger in itself - in the relationship between Lucas and Oleg, this is a concept which continues to influence Lucas even at a distance. We have to wonder whether this is something that has become especially important to him since his imprisonment and release, or whether clever Oleg and patient Arkady identified it as a pre-existing area of weakness for Lucas in his relationships. Oleg really does introduce the word "respect" as an instruction, doesn't he? He is saying to Lucas: "do as you are told". Lucas really doesn't have a choice.

Thank you for sharing these insights. You pick up on a lot of eliptical communication in the script and performances. It's fascinating to read.

(22-11-2010 11:57 PM)binkie Wrote:  I have to say, I'm disinclined even to try (or, really, to bother) back-lighting sesons 7/8 Lucas with season 9 'John'. It wasn't in the narrative, so it wasn't in the character. Taking this episode as part of the coherent narrative and character development of seasons 7/8 (those were the days!), Lucas is talking about something that he remembers. Actually, he is talking about a dual memory: the one in which he recalls something which occurred in his childhood or youth, and the one which recalls him sharing the memory of this with Oleg. It's difficult to know which of these memories is causing Lucas to smile, and that is just about every shade of disturbing.

It's frustrating, because I can't help but wonder "How does that tie in with John?", every time Lucas mentions something about his past xD I can't help myself! As much as I'd love to forget S9 exits, I can't stop myself questioning everything that Lucas says when I re-watch episodes. It's easier to believe that Lucas and John are two completely different characters, but I'm still desperately searching for some far-flung link which will magically cause S9 to make sense. There must be one somewhere, surely?!

Any yes... it is very disturbing. Stockholm Syndrome is one of those things that's both extremely compelling and extremely confusing. Because of course, to most people it seems highly illogical, but I can personally see the logic behind the fact that Lucas would fondly remember going for walks with Oleg It's strange, and it does really cement the idea that Lucas trusts Oleg completely. It's the result of circumstances beyond his control, and he has had no choice but to accept it - however conflicting his emotions about the man may be, for Lucas, I'm guessing Oleg is actually quite a 'friendly' figure. When you have no-one else to talk to, or to have any communication with whatsoever for so many years, it's easy to see why you might start to view the captors who refrain from killing you as 'kind' people.

(22-11-2010 11:57 PM)binkie Wrote:  The suggestion of trigger words is a good one, especially in light of what you wrote earlier regarding the issue of trust between Lucas and Harry. Clearly, with the word "trust" being a keyword - a kind of trigger in itself - in the relationship between Lucas and Oleg, this is a concept which continues to influence Lucas even at a distance. We have to wonder whether this is something that has become especially important to him since his imprisonment and release, or whether clever Oleg and patient Arkady identified it as a pre-existing area of weakness for Lucas in his relationships. Oleg really does introduce the word "respect" as an instruction, doesn't he? He is saying to Lucas: "do as you are told". Lucas really doesn't have a choice.

Thank you for sharing these insights. You pick up on a lot of eliptical communication in the script and performances. It's fascinating to read.

Oh yes, I'm fairly certain Lucas has a number of 'trigger-words' which induce flash-backs. He does react to certain words and phrases visibly on-screen, and these reactions are often followed by flash-back scenes. I'll have to see what induces the attempted-suicide scene, because that one is particularly sobering. I think the saddest thing about that flash-back is that Oleg is the one who stops Lucas from killing himself - explaining the complete trust and respect that Lucas has for him, perhaps. At the end of the day, Oleg saved his life.
I think their relationship is more of a classic torture technique. As I've mentioned previously, that quote "They'd beat me and then leave me alone for weeks, just so that I'd crave more beatings" is very telling. Oleg created this relationship between himself and Lucas, because prisoners are more likely to talk if they trust you. There are two methods of interrogations, generally - torture, and building up a rapport with your prisoner. It seems Oleg managed to mix the two together, creating a situation where Lucas both fears and trusts his interrogator completely. As the relationship was already in place, I assume Oleg would simply have seen the fact that Lucas had returned to work as the perfect opportunity to gain some leverage over MI5. It's a classic example of personal emotions undermining the security services obligations. And so we revisit the suitability question
Indeed, "Show me respect" is an imperative. Lucas is used to doing what he's told, because he knows what the consequences will be if he doesn't. It's very sad, really. His character is so psychologically compromised, you really do wonder how he sleeps at all!

Thank-you very much That's quite the compliment, especially coming from you! I'll have a look over the rest of the episode tomorrow I expect, and then I want to look back at the rest of 7.1. I'd love to go through each episode and analyse everything Lucas says/does to be quite honest, I'm desperate to find out if there is any plausible way he could actually be John Bateman...?

(23-11-2010 12:22 AM)Byatil Wrote:  I'm desperate to find out if there is any plausible way he could actually be John Bateman...?

Mentally, there is every plausible way that Lucas could be John Bateman, with the way Lucas's head is messed up at times, I can see how his mind could have just forgotten John Bateman and casted that aside. The mind sometimes don't work in normal ways, and I could make myself believe that this plotline is plausible.

But physically and logically, the storyline the writers introduced as to HOW he became Lucas North is the main issue, that he somehow fooled MI5 and just about every other agency is the most implausible thing ever. Not to mention that the writers then end up contradicting it with scenes of Beth taking less than 5 seconds finding out the real Lucas North or Alec White finding out about Maya and John Bateman going to university together, and not to mention Lucas saying that he had been so careful.

I mean, if it didn't take that much for Alec or Beth to find out the truth, then I can't say he was very careful. All the mental stuff aside, the logics of how he became Lucas North in this storyline is very poorly explained, and that is the BIGGEST reason why I simply cannot believe that Lucas has been hiding his John side.

(23-11-2010 01:24 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(23-11-2010 12:22 AM)Byatil Wrote:  I'm desperate to find out if there is any plausible way he could actually be John Bateman...?

Mentally, there is every plausible way that Lucas could be John Bateman, with the way Lucas's head is messed up at times, I can see how his mind could have just forgotten John Bateman and casted that aside. The mind sometimes don't work in normal ways, and I could make myself believe that this plotline is plausible.

But physically and logically, the storyline the writers introduced as to HOW he became Lucas North is the main issue, that he somehow fooled MI5 and just about every other agency is the most implausible thing ever. Not to mention that the writers then end up contradicting it with scenes of Beth taking less than 5 seconds finding out the real Lucas North or Alec White finding out about Maya and John Bateman going to university together, and not to mention Lucas saying that he had been so careful.

I mean, if it didn't take that much for Alec or Beth to find out the truth, then I can't say he was very careful. All the mental stuff aside, the logics of how he became Lucas North in this storyline is very poorly explained, and that is the BIGGEST reason why I simply cannot believe that Lucas has been hiding his John side.

I do agree with you that the biggest plot-hole lies in the fact that it was so easy to uncover Lucas' "true" identity, but I digress... there should still have been some sign of John earlier in the story. If Lucas is so fragile he has constant nightmares/flash-backs and seems to react strongly to certain trigger-words, then it really doesn't make sense to me that he would NEVER have made any reference to anything which might have explained him having a different identity. As has been pointed out - the plot would have made sense in Beth's character arc, because she has some back-story which supports the theory that she could have a 'secret identity'. There was no such back-story with Lucas xD

The writers definitely created a very shocking finale... but it wasn't a very intelligent or reasonable one. Why are we supposed to believe that after 20 years, Lucas suddenly realises his undying love for Maya? Even though throughout S&8, all we have seen is his lack of commitment in relationships? The only piece of information we have is that he was married to Elisabeta. But we're never told the details of the marriage. Was the marriage used in order to help Lucas work undercover in Russia? Did he ever really love her? He claims he did, but as soon as Maya pops up, his past relationships are all put under scrutiny. I feel like Maya was a horrifically useless device, whose only purpose was to ensure that Lucas got to take his shirt off one last time before he disappeared. There is nothing to support anything that happens in S9 in the previous series. Psychological trauma could, to an extent, explain Lucas/John's dual persona, but even then, there should have been some hint, however small, that he wasn't who he said he was. In Connie's character arc we can see an example of the writers carrying out a 'traitor' plot-line effectively. Small hints are dropped throughout S8 to suggest she isn't who she claims to be, and she eventually has her redemption. I'm not saying that Lucas shouldn't have (apparently) committed suicide, but it would have been a damned site more believable if his character had been fleshed out properly. Instead, we were left with a dodgy extension tacked on to his original character, which ran away with the plot and ultimately ruined all the work everyone had done creating Lucas North in the first place :/

(This isn't all directed at you by the way BravoNine! I'm just ranting generally).

Binkie and Byatil, great analyses of 8.4! waw, you both really dig into every second of what we see/saw!

I think 'Roushanka' is the name op the prison were Lucas was held.
And I think Oleg is implying that, even though Lucas isn't physically captured any more, he's mentally still a prisoner and Oleg still has an enormous impact on Lucas.
As Binkie and Byatil both prooved with their analyses, there is much truth in this statement.
As for the Lucas is John sh*t, well, there really is no plausible explanation as to why we should believe a single aspect about it.
Even if Lucas suffered from trauma (which he undoubtably did) and had 'forgotten' he was John, there are too many plotholes in the story to be taken serious by us.
The picture Beth retrieved in merely minutes (as pointed out by many in posts above) is just one of them.
Then there is Maya:
You don't simply forget about 'the love of your life', even if you don't actually realise anymore who it was (due to memorieblocking, wich I can accept) you must have dreams about them or even flashbacks, or the faint feeling of something missing. And we never got any hints of that being the case, so the writers expect us to take that in just like that, as if we don't have a decent brain of our own.
As BravoNine said, it's not so much the fact that Lucas was someone else (though I still have reasonable doubts someone like Lucas could have been and rebecame someone like John) , it's how they made us see that story that's lacking spine, what so ever.

(23-11-2010 11:37 AM)Belle Wrote:  Then there is Maya:
You don't simply forget about 'the love of your life', even if you don't actually realise anymore who it was (due to memorieblocking, wich I can accept) you must have dreams about them or even flashbacks, or the faint feeling of something missing. And we never got any hints of that being the case, so the writers expect us to take that in just like that, as if we don't have a decent brain of our own.
As BravoNine said, it's not so much the fact that Lucas was someone else (though I still have reasonable doubts someone like Lucas could have been and rebecame someone like John) , it's how they made us see that story that's lacking spine, what so ever.

I think Maya was supposed to represent the road not taken. Had Lucas stayed with her years ago, he'd be a husband and father with a 9 to 5 job living the kind of conventional life most people have. He wouldn't have been imprisoned and tortured, wouldn't have had his heart broken by Elizabeta, wouldn't have seen his colleagues die. In retrospect, her photo awakens in him not love, but regret.

Of course, it's just another missed opportunity by the writers. It could have been interesting to see Lucas struggle with the idea that he could have had a different life. They could have explored what choices Lucas made and what choices were made for him. They still could have explored issues of identity and (self) deception. They still could have ended up in the same place with Lucas and Harry on the roof.

Honestly, I will never understand why the writers chose to make Lucas a terrorist who assumes a fake identity. Even without all the plot holes and inconsistencies with prior series, it just seems like an incredibly bad idea.

(23-11-2010 01:54 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  I think Maya was supposed to represent the road not taken. Had Lucas stayed with her years ago, he'd be a husband and father with a 9 to 5 job living the kind of conventional life most people have. He wouldn't have been imprisoned and tortured, wouldn't have had his heart broken by Elizabeta, wouldn't have seen his colleagues die. In retrospect, her photo awakens in him not love, but regret.

Of course, it's just another missed opportunity by the writers. It could have been interesting to see Lucas struggle with the idea that he could have had a different life. They could have explored what choices Lucas made and what choices were made for him. They still could have explored issues of identity and (self) deception. They still could have ended up in the same place with Lucas and Harry on the roof.

Honestly, I will never understand why the writers chose to make Lucas a terrorist who assumes a fake identity. Even without all the plot holes and inconsistencies with prior series, it just seems like an incredibly bad idea.

I agree, even with the Maya and the John Bateman plot, they could have made an equally riveting and interesting story about how he could have had that simple normal life, and maybe even how he was now regretting this choice of becoming Lucas North. Lucas North could have just been another alias that he had created because he wanted to run away or something.

But instead the writers had to write an implausible story of how a good loyal man became an evil terrorist who didn't care about anyone but Maya. They could have built on his already stated character history instead of re-writing it all.

I rather watch Lucas struggling with choosing between that simple life with Maya or stay as Lucas on the Grid rather than Lucas hiding some deep dark evil John side that wanted to betray everyone.

The writers took the easy way out, and it's shameful.

(23-11-2010 01:54 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  I think Maya was supposed to represent the road not taken. Had Lucas stayed with her years ago, he'd be a husband and father with a 9 to 5 job living the kind of conventional life most people have. He wouldn't have been imprisoned and tortured, wouldn't have had his heart broken by Elizabeta, wouldn't have seen his colleagues die. In retrospect, her photo awakens in him not love, but regret.

I do find this a good insight in what Maya was to and brought to life in Lucas.
It's just such a shame that the writers never invested in giving her a backbone, so we could understand Lucas' reasons better.
Instead they made her a flat figure who was supposed to be a doctor (with such long fingernails, don't think so!) and who brought nothing to elevate the story.

Quote:Honestly, I will never understand why the writers chose to make Lucas a terrorist who assumes a fake identity. Even without all the plot holes and inconsistencies with prior series, it just seems like an incredibly bad idea.

Me neither, it just does not make sense!

I wonder if there would be a way to let the writers know what our thoughts are on S9?
Maybe they could learn from us .