Thanks for some very interesting and fascinating analyses!
There are a few points, though, I disagree with.
First of all I can't remember Lucas ever blaming his country for his ordeal in Russia, in fact I can't even remember him blaming MI5 - it's Harry who gets all the blame. It's a theme that runs throughout series 7, from some of Lucas' hints in 7.2 to his answer to Connie's question in 7.8. As we were told that Lucas had been Harry's protégé, someone he had always promoted, I think it's safe to assume that they had a rather close relationship, that Lucas may have always admired Harry. And so it's quite understandable to what a large extent Lucas is affected by the feeling that Harry may have betrayed him and/or that he didn't do anything to get him out of Russia. So I see the problem he has with Harry, but I've never seen that Lucas has a problem with his country or that he is lacking patriotism. He might be critical of current politics, but of course that's not the same as being unpatriotic.

Apart from Harry there is one other person he blames for his treatment in prison and that's Darshavin in that great episode 8.4. And that scene, when he accuses Darshavin of having him kept in solitary confinement and having beaten and tortured him, for me is also the moment when he manages to really break free from the power that man still had over him, at least to a certain extent.

Thoughout series 7 and 8 I can't see any kind of "abnormal" behaviour in Lucas. We know that during his time in prison he read a lot of books and had discussions about literature with Darshavin. And apparently he owns a lot of books, as we can see in 7.2.. So that's an interest he has, which may have helped him a lot in Russia, especially in those 4 years of solitary confinement, and there really isn't any reason at all why he should suddenly stop reading books about 2 years after his release. And as apparently his Russian his so good that he could pass as a native he must be musical as well. To really pick up the intonation and accent of a foreign language usually has something to do with a talent for music. So it would be just normal to assume he is interested in music. Unlike his interest in literature it's not something we are specifically told about, but we're not told about the contrary, either. Did we ever learn about Ros' or Adam's or Jo's interest in music? Probably not, because Spooks doesn't dwell too much on the private lives of the agents, but it certainly was not supposed to mean they never listened to any music. That remark Lucas makes to Danielle about not having any interests seems to me very much out of character. It's meant to prepare us for the notion that Lucas in fact is JB who in fact is a psychopath. So I just can't take it serious!

My impression is that Lucas has probably always been very meticulous, careful, methodical and controlled. For 8 years he had no control whatsoever over his life and this may well explain those little things like the way he prepared the tea etc.. Very well observed! But again I think it's nothing abnormal, it's nothing which would hint at severe psychological problems. The fact that for 8 years others had control over him can also explain why he normally tries to control his emotions, even though from time to time you can still tell how vulnerable he his (that's one of the reasons why I have fallen in love with him, so of course I'm not very objective about it ).

I agree with the observation that he desperately wants to go back to the Lucas he was before he got arrested and that he desperately wants some of his old life back. In 7.2 he tells his ex-wife how terrible it is when everything is taken away from you. That's one of the reasons why he wants to come back to MI5, that's at least one part of his former life he can get back. I think the other reason is that working for MI5 has always been much more than just a job for him, protecting other people, protecting the country - that's totally in accordance with his "moral fire" and with his moral values. And only because he was so absolutely convinced that he was doing the right thing he was able to survive those 8 years without betraying his country.
Additional to that MI5 seems to be almost like a family for him with Harry being some sort of father figure. That's why he so desperately wants his trust and approval and that's why he is willing to risk his life and his freedom to personally help him in 7.7. But again this isn't really "abnormal" behaviour - people who are devoted to the kind of work they are doing often don't have a lot of private life (Ros would be another example for that). Besides, it's not that he isn't interested in anybody outside MI5: he would have loved to get his ex-wife back and he started an affair with SC. Not the best choice in women, but still great compared to Maya. What he really needs is someone who loves him just as he is, whom he can trust and who trusts him, who tries to understand him and chases all those nightmares away and then everthing will be fine.

Sorry to have given such a long lecture! But I just can't stop thinking about Lucas. (And by the way, as for me the JB story never happened and Lucas is still alive, I'm using present tense when writing about him).

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  My impression is that Lucas has probably always been very meticulous, careful, methodical and controlled. For 8 years he had no control whatsoever over his life and this may well explain those little things like the way he prepared the tea etc.. Very well observed! But again I think it's nothing abnormal, it's nothing which would hint at severe psychological problems. The fact that for 8 years others had control over him can also explain why he normally tries to control his emotions, even though from time to time you can still tell how vulnerable he his (that's one of the reasons why I have fallen in love with him, so of course I'm not very objective about it ).

I do think that you can't get through 8 years of imprisonment and torture and the feeling everyone has abandon you, without somewhat of a mental problem/ issue. Maybe it was wrong of me to label it as 'a compulsive disorder', but I do feel Lucas has a serious need for professional help, wich he obviously never got or accepted.
And no need to 'blush' for having fallen in love with him, sure you're not the only one! (as I can confirm)

(25-11-2010 03:49 PM)Belle Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  My impression is that Lucas has probably always been very meticulous, careful, methodical and controlled. For 8 years he had no control whatsoever over his life and this may well explain those little things like the way he prepared the tea etc.. Very well observed! But again I think it's nothing abnormal, it's nothing which would hint at severe psychological problems. The fact that for 8 years others had control over him can also explain why he normally tries to control his emotions, even though from time to time you can still tell how vulnerable he his (that's one of the reasons why I have fallen in love with him, so of course I'm not very objective about it ).

I do think that you can't get through 8 years of imprisonment and torture and the feeling everyone has abandon you, without somewhat of a mental problem/ issue. Maybe it was wrong of me to label it as 'a compulsive disorder', but I do feel Lucas has a serious need for professional help, wich he obviously never got or accepted.
And no need to 'blush' for having fallen in love with him, sure you're not the only one! (as I can confirm)

You're probably right about that. But it's nothing that some sort of therapy (and the love of the right woman) couldn't fix. What's important for me is that whatever problems Lucas may have, they are all connected with those 8 years in Russia and not with him being in fact someone else, someone who is so completely different to Lucas in basically all respects.

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Thanks for some very interesting and fascinating analyses!
There are a few points, though, I disagree with.
First of all I can't remember Lucas ever blaming his country for his ordeal in Russia, in fact I can't even remember him blaming MI5 - it's Harry who gets all the blame. It's a theme that runs throughout series 7, from some of Lucas' hints in 7.2 to his answer to Connie's question in 7.8. As we were told that Lucas had been Harry's protégé, someone he had always promoted, I think it's safe to assume that they had a rather close relationship, that Lucas may have always admired Harry. And so it's quite understandable to what a large extent Lucas is affected by the feeling that Harry may have betrayed him and/or that he didn't do anything to get him out of Russia. So I see the problem he has with Harry, but I've never seen that Lucas has a problem with his country or that he is lacking patriotism. He might be critical of current politics, but of course that's not the same as being unpatriotic.

Hm, maybe that's just the impression I got... I'm not quite sure where I got it from though, rofl. I kind of got the impression he wasn't bothered about his country anymore, per se, because of the way he said "Home isn't where you live, it's where people understand you"... which to me, implied he felt more at home in Russia. But yes, I do agree that his issues are largely in his personal relationships (or lack thereof) with others.

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Thoughout series 7 and 8 I can't see any kind of "abnormal" behaviour in Lucas. We know that during his time in prison he read a lot of books and had discussions about literature with Darshavin. And apparently he owns a lot of books, as we can see in 7.2.. So that's an interest he has, which may have helped him a lot in Russia, especially in those 4 years of solitary confinement, and there really isn't any reason at all why he should suddenly stop reading books about 2 years after his release. And as apparently his Russian his so good that he could pass as a native he must be musical as well. To really pick up the intonation and accent of a foreign language usually has something to do with a talent for music. So it would be just normal to assume he is interested in music. Unlike his interest in literature it's not something we are specifically told about, but we're not told about the contrary, either. Did we ever learn about Ros' or Adam's or Jo's interest in music? Probably not, because Spooks doesn't dwell too much on the private lives of the agents, but it certainly was not supposed to mean they never listened to any music. That remark Lucas makes to Danielle about not having any interests seems to me very much out of character. It's meant to prepare us for the notion that Lucas in fact is JB who in fact is a psychopath. So I just can't take it serious!

Yes, however as the series' progress, Lucas seems to have fewer and fewer personal possessions in his flat, up until the point in S9 where he tells Danielle he has no real interests. If we discount S9, then yes, you're correct. Am I making this up, or wasn't he have supposed to have done A-levels in Music and English Literature...? Which makes perfect sense with the way his character is portrayed as having a natural flair for Language and Literature. I agree that it seemed very out of character, but it could be explained by his lack of personal-identity outside of MI5? If he isn't quite sure who he is anymore, then surely he can't be quite sure what he believes in anymore. That's how I would explain it anyway, even though his passions/interests are apparently what kept him sane for 8 years... but that's shoddy writing for you

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  My impression is that Lucas has probably always been very meticulous, careful, methodical and controlled. For 8 years he had no control whatsoever over his life and this may well explain those little things like the way he prepared the tea etc.. Very well observed! But again I think it's nothing abnormal, it's nothing which would hint at severe psychological problems. The fact that for 8 years others had control over him can also explain why he normally tries to control his emotions, even though from time to time you can still tell how vulnerable he his (that's one of the reasons why I have fallen in love with him, so of course I'm not very objective about it ).

Eh, I would have to disagree with you there. I don't think it's possible to be tortured and abused for so long without any real external stimulus or conversation and not end up a little psychologically damaged. We don't know how Lucas behaved prior to his stint in Russia, but in S7, Elizabeta remarks to him "Were you always this cold?", which implies that in the time he's been away he has changed rather significantly, personality-wise.

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Additional to that MI5 seems to be almost like a family for him with Harry being some sort of father figure. That's why he so desperately wants his trust and approval and that's why he is willing to risk his life and his freedom to personally help him in 7.7. But again this isn't really "abnormal" behaviour - people who are devoted to the kind of work they are doing often don't have a lot of private life (Ros would be another example for that). Besides, it's not that he isn't interested in anybody outside MI5: he would have loved to get his ex-wife back and he started an affair with SC. Not the best choice in women, but still great compared to Maya. What he really needs is someone who loves him just as he is, whom he can trust and who trusts him, who tries to understand him and chases all those nightmares away and then everthing will be fine.

Ros has lost almost everything that matters to her (from what the audience has seen anyway) though, so to an extent you could say that she continued with her job because it was all she had left. The way Ruth comments on her funeral "I think this is what she wanted us to realise, that this is what we're missing out on" (or words to that effect) really said to me that Ros felt trapped. She might have liked a quiet life in the country, but it seems that after you've involved yourself with MI5, there's no going back. We also see this in the relationship between Harry and Ruth - as much as they'd both like to go away and live happily ever after, as Ruth says "What would we talk to the neighbours about?".
His interests outside of work seem rather superficial though, and they are indeed related to his work. SC was an agent whom he dealt with. Elizabeta ended up working with the FSB. There's always a link to his job somewhere, apart from with Maya... but I'm not even going to try and go down that path, their entire relationship is so nonsensical!

Thanks for the alternative insight

(25-11-2010 05:33 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 03:49 PM)Belle Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  My impression is that Lucas has probably always been very meticulous, careful, methodical and controlled. For 8 years he had no control whatsoever over his life and this may well explain those little things like the way he prepared the tea etc.. Very well observed! But again I think it's nothing abnormal, it's nothing which would hint at severe psychological problems. The fact that for 8 years others had control over him can also explain why he normally tries to control his emotions, even though from time to time you can still tell how vulnerable he his (that's one of the reasons why I have fallen in love with him, so of course I'm not very objective about it ).

I do think that you can't get through 8 years of imprisonment and torture and the feeling everyone has abandon you, without somewhat of a mental problem/ issue. Maybe it was wrong of me to label it as 'a compulsive disorder', but I do feel Lucas has a serious need for professional help, wich he obviously never got or accepted.
And no need to 'blush' for having fallen in love with him, sure you're not the only one! (as I can confirm)

You're probably right about that. But it's nothing that some sort of therapy (and the love of the right woman) couldn't fix. What's important for me is that whatever problems Lucas may have, they are all connected with those 8 years in Russia and not with him being in fact someone else, someone who is so completely different to Lucas in basically all respects.

With that I can agree wholeheartedly! Lucas being John is complete sh*t to me too!!! I also can't believethat such a good person who has sacrificed everything and indured so much pain for the sake of 'strangers', could (re)become someone like John, who puts a whole nation or even the worlds safety on the line for a cardboard character (Maya) and who would do exactly what he despises, nl. betraying his friends!

I think it is strange how Maya never really questions what he has been up to...
When she meets him, so he can explain things he says, 'When I was in Africa, something happened, something I had to bury.."
At his house she says, "I suppose you're innocent" and he replies "no".
At the hospital he tells her he has "Fixed things" and she doesn't ask anything!!!!!
And does she really ever know where they are going or why they have to hide in a hotel?? (until Alec tells her)
Am I missing something???
I love the analyses, they are really interesting...

(25-11-2010 06:49 PM)Poppy Wrote:  I think it is strange how Maya never really questions what he has been up to...
When she meets him, so he can explain things he says, 'When I was in Africa, something happened, something I had to bury.."
At his house she says, "I suppose you're innocent" and he replies "no".
At the hospital he tells her he has "Fixed things" and she doesn't ask anything!!!!!
And does she really ever know where they are going or why they have to hide in a hotel?? (until Alec tells her)
Am I missing something???
I love the analyses, they are really interesting...

Maya is not even a functioning person, she's just a plot device with no brain whatsoever! No personality, no brain function, no nothing! I've seen a sponge with more personality and brain cells than her!

It amazes me that even when her "boyfriend" has a giant knife stuck in his leg and her other "lover" has a gun, she just obeys and waits outside.....any SANE person would have run and called the cops! SERIOUSLY!!!!

It's no wonder that John and Maya got together, I mean, he's obviously not right in the head either! I mean, what sort of normal sane human being decides that just because he's stuck on a foreign continent that the best way to get off is to blow up an embassy and kill your friend for his passport????? I'm sorry but a NORMAL PERSON just doesn't think like that!!!! I'm already a pretty abnormal crazy person, and even I don't think like that!!!!

-----------------

On the other hand about the relationship between Harry and Lucas, it's sad that even at the very end with those two on that roof, Harry was still all about the job, doing what's right for the job, it didn't matter that Lucas was losing his heart and soul over this, Harry Pearce will always be about the job. And I think that probably shattered Lucas's soul to realize that, it didn't matter how many years he stayed loyal or what he had suffered, to Harry, the personal bond doesn't matter, it's all about doing the right thing for the job, for Queen and Country. I think Lucas was hoping that he mattered a bit more, that maybe just maybe he was a bit more important to Harry, and he's finally now realizing that to Harry, the job will always come first. I think for Lucas, on that roof when he said that he was nothing, it's when he finally realized that he should have seen a long time ago who Harry really is instead of making him up in his own head, that Harry is defender of the realm, first, last, and always.

And honestly, I think that's why a part of me will never forgive Harry Pearce for not trying hard enough to save Lucas. He was about the job, doing the right thing for the job, he chose to sacrifice Lucas over his job and his love for Ruth. He didn't try hard enough to save Lucas, to fix this situation, he could have, he had the power to, but he didn't try, he was manipulating things til the end. And I just can't ever forgive Harry for that.

I was also surprised Harry didn't work harder to save Lucas in that scene (on the roof). There were better things he could've said, he must've known the "real" Lucas was "in there," but to just say "Are you John the murderer, or Lucas the [trusted agent...sorry can't remember the real line]" just seems feeble. Okay I know L/J has a gun at him, but with Harry being the diplomat, it's a shame the writers didn't give him better lines in such a powerful moment. So yes, Harry was MI5 to the end, and Lucas was sacrificed/sacrificed himself.

I'm still mad they wrote out a popular character THAT WAY.

(25-11-2010 07:38 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  I was also surprised Harry didn't work harder to save Lucas in that scene (on the roof). There were better things he could've said, he must've known the "real" Lucas was "in there," but to just say "Are you John the murderer, or Lucas the [trusted agent...sorry can't remember the real line]" just seems feeble. Okay I know L/J has a gun at him, but with Harry being the diplomat, it's a shame the writers didn't give him better lines in such a powerful moment. So yes, Harry was MI5 to the end, and Lucas was sacrificed/sacrificed himself.

Harry Pearce never tried hard enough, he was about his job and his love for Ruth, and for that, I will probably never forgive him for what happened to Lucas. He had a chance to save Lucas, to turn things around, he never tried hard enough, he sacrificed Lucas for the greater good just like he did those years ago in Moscow. That's who Harry Pearce will always be, and it's sad that Lucas finally realized that standing on that roof.

"Pactum Serva"? I mean, that's all Harry could say to Lucas after all those years? It's full of crap!

(25-11-2010 07:44 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  "Pactum Serva"? I mean, that's all Harry could say to Lucas after all those years? It's full of crap!

Seems rather ironic that Harry would choose to tell Lucas to "keep the faith" in his final moments? It was rather obvious that Lucas would not take kindly to the idea of being locked up again, this time directly by Harry, and in his own country. Surely it would have been obvious to Harry that Lucas would have been in a position where he had nothing left to lose? So why tell him "Pactum Serva"? It implies that Harry wanted Lucas to live, and to stay where he could "keep an eye on him", yet Harry never tried to help Lucas.

I found the scene in 8.4 between Harry and Lucas very amusing, when they're speaking about how Lucas let Oleg into his flat;
"You let the man who tortured and imprisoned you for 4 years into your personal space, what do you think a psychologist might say about that?"
"I have no idea, but I have a feeling it might be in Latin."

Just the way they're firing back and forth at one another, it seems like there's this constant struggle between them. Maybe Harry's finding it difficult to come to terms with the fact that this isn't the same man he employed all those years ago?