(25-11-2010 07:50 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 07:44 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  "Pactum Serva"? I mean, that's all Harry could say to Lucas after all those years? It's full of crap!

Seems rather ironic that Harry would choose to tell Lucas to "keep the faith" in his final moments? It was rather obvious that Lucas would not take kindly to the idea of being locked up again, this time directly by Harry, and in his own country. Surely it would have been obvious to Harry that Lucas would have been in a position where he had nothing left to lose? So why tell him "Pactum Serva"? It implies that Harry wanted Lucas to live, and to stay where he could "keep an eye on him", yet Harry never tried to help Lucas.

Harry's line was "Pactum Serva, whatever the cost", meaning that he would defend the country whatever the cost, he was saying this to Lucas's realization that Maya had been sacrificed for nothing and Harry didn't do a damn thing because to Harry, it was all about the faith and the service.

Harry always expects his people to be strong enough to take it, not realizing that not everyone is like him, maybe now faced with what happened to Lucas, it will make him realize, although I doubt it. Harry Pearce didn't try hard enough to save Lucas, he will always be about the service. He sacrificed innocent lives for the greater good, his agents for the greater good, so what's two more lives with Maya and Lucas.

(25-11-2010 07:50 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Just the way they're firing back and forth at one another, it seems like there's this constant struggle between them. Maybe Harry's finding it difficult to come to terms with the fact that this isn't the same man he employed all those years ago?

I doubt Harry really realized what those 8 years did to Lucas. He expects people to just pick up the pieces and move on, he never did try hard enough to help Lucas. In a lot of ways, Harry was just as much responsible for how Lucas turned out than Lucas or Vaughn.

(25-11-2010 07:59 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Harry's line was "Pactum Serva, whatever the cost", meaning that he would defend the country whatever the cost, he was saying this to Lucas's realization that Maya had been sacrificed for nothing and Harry didn't do a damn thing because to Harry, it was all about the faith and the service.

Harry always expects his people to be strong enough to take it, not realizing that not everyone is like him, maybe now faced with what happened to Lucas, it will make him realize, although I doubt it. Harry Pearce didn't try hard enough to save Lucas, he will always be about the service. He sacrificed innocent lives for the greater good, his agents for the greater good, so what's two more lives with Maya and Lucas.

Ahh, I see. Well yeah, that makes sense. The ends always justify the means for Harry. That's why he needs Ruth, to remind him that "people aren't just chess pieces".

It's very sad really. Harry is almost an embodiment of the terrorists he fights. At the end of the day, they're all fighting for 'the greater good', no matter who gets caught up in the process. As Kachimov said "there will always be another courageous young man to take his place".

Sorry to derail the discussion, but this has been bothering me forever. When are we told that Lucas only spent 4 years in isolation? I always had the impression he was alone for the full 8 years. In 7.2 he tells Harry that Kachimov was his only company (Oleg is probably one of those he didn't concider "company"), and that he spent 8 years getting to know the man. No mention of ever having cell mates. But, exactly WHO did those dratted tattoos on him? Were Oleg or smoke-lady artistically inclined?

(25-11-2010 09:12 PM)Annie Wrote:  Sorry to derail the discussion, but this has been bothering me forever. When are we told that Lucas only spent 4 years in isolation? I always had the impression he was alone for the full 8 years. In 7.2 he tells Harry that Kachimov was his only company (Oleg is probably one of those he didn't concider "company"), and that he spent 8 years getting to know the man. No mention of ever having cell mates. But, exactly WHO did those dratted tattoos on him? Were Oleg or smoke-lady artistically inclined?

He probably had times when he joined the normal prison populations, or maybe the guards, it was never really explained. But he did say that tattooing is part of the culture in there, so most likely he did have some other interactions.

(25-11-2010 09:12 PM)Annie Wrote:  Sorry to derail the discussion, but this has been bothering me forever. When are we told that Lucas only spent 4 years in isolation? I always had the impression he was alone for the full 8 years. In 7.2 he tells Harry that Kachimov was his only company (Oleg is probably one of those he didn't concider "company"), and that he spent 8 years getting to know the man. No mention of ever having cell mates. But, exactly WHO did those dratted tattoos on him? Were Oleg or smoke-lady artistically inclined?

Yeah, I was going to ask about the Kachimov thing. He claims he only had Kachimov for company in 7.2, but then goes on to say him and Dasharvin became quite 'close' in 8.4? Is this just a bit of a mistake on the writers part, or was Lucas lying when he said Kachimov was his only company?

I'm assuming he wasn't always in solitary, because I'm assuming they would try different methods in order to 'break' him. Then again, the prison he was held at was supposedly a specialist interrogation camp, so it's unclear as to why tattooing would be popular in there, as I would assume the place would be for captured spies and whistleblowers, primarily. At any rate, I don't suppose it'll ever be explained to us now

(25-11-2010 09:12 PM)Annie Wrote:  Sorry to derail the discussion, but this has been bothering me forever. When are we told that Lucas only spent 4 years in isolation? I always had the impression he was alone for the full 8 years. In 7.2 he tells Harry that Kachimov was his only company (Oleg is probably one of those he didn't concider "company"), and that he spent 8 years getting to know the man. No mention of ever having cell mates. But, exactly WHO did those dratted tattoos on him? Were Oleg or smoke-lady artistically inclined?

My theory is that during that interview with Harry and Ros, who both seem to be rather suspicious and almost hostile towards Lucas, he simply doesn't tell them the whole truth. He has his own plans regarding Kachimov, he uses the situation to fire a little arrow at Harry (with the remark "he implied you weren't in much of a hurry to get me back") and he more or less does what he had told Kachimov on the phone, i.e. tell Harry and Ros that Kachimov was actually rather nice. But that's all there is to it. At least in my mind Lucas spent some time in Lubjanka, then some time in normal prisons with normal criminals (one way of trying to wear him down and break him) and in between those 4 years with Darshavin.

But just to come back once more to the scene on the rooftop. It's the only scene I've seen of episode 8 and I will probably never watch the rest of the episode, but at that point I have to say that I simply didn't care anymore. Because the episode wasn't anymore about Lucas, it was about that ruthless killer JB, who had nothing in common with Lucas and in that last scene stood there full of self-pity and without the courage to face the consequences of his evil doings. So Harry could have done nothing in this situation to save Lucas, because Lucas wasn't there. He could have done a lot for Lucas in series 7 and 8, but I see the storyarc about JB as completely detached from Lucas' experience in prison and in fact completely detached from Lucas' character.

(25-11-2010 12:00 AM)Byatil Wrote:  We always view Lucas as a loyal, courageous man who is brave enough to die for his team. But could we actually say his work for MI5 post-Russia is more of a selfish indulgence? I'm assuming that in his mind, there are no other options. It's not as if he could just go home and get a job at the post office or something!

See, that’s why I love this forum Straight to the good stuff without the tiresome essays. The post office thing is absolutely the point, and absolutely the problem. We know Lucas needs the time he spent in prison, and his experiences of interrogation and torture, to mean something – he says as much to Harry in 7.3. He was detained because he was an MI5 officer, and was treated the way he was for the same reason. However horrific the logic, that means something. That speaks to a value that was placed on him. To some extent, that is also what kept him alive: potential future value. The importance of retaining an element of that value is impossible to over-estimate. Yes, it is selfish to some degree (he seems little concerned at the idea that he might not be fit for service, and that this might place his colleagues at risk, for example), but selfishness is also self-preservation. And that means something.

(25-11-2010 10:59 AM)Belle Wrote:  He longes to be the pre-russia Lucas, but somehow he lost that person whilst in prison.
Everything he does is a quest to try to become that Lucas again.

I understand what you mean when you say this, but I’m not convinced Lucas does actually want to ‘be’ his pre-Moscow self in the way you suggest. I think the situation is rather more complex. It will almost certainly be very important to Lucas now that his time in prison not be dismissed as an eight year black hole. The initial expression on his face in 7.1 when Malcolm says: “Is it really eight years?” is one almost of irritation, then confusion and disappointment, before softening into conciliation and the placatory comment about Russian prisons being like holiday camps: “They have mattresses and everything.” Lucas is beginning to realise here that those eight years will never mean the same to other people as they do to him. He will actually become, in some ways, quite protective of those years. By the time of 8.7 he is even able to make jokes about them, characterising them to the Hindu translator as an: ”eight year reading sabbatical”. That time belongs to him – it is literally part of him, written on his skin - and it is for him to make sure it continues to have meaning. Undoing that time, reversing through the black hole, is unthinkable. To do so would be to strip that huge portion of his time, and all the pieces of his life that went into making it, of any value. I think Lucas probably looks fondly on his pre-Moscow self, in the same way he would at childhood pictures. But I think he recognises it would be dangerous to think he could be that person now, and that it would be equally dangerous to want that.

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  ...I see the problem he has with Harry, but I've never seen that Lucas has a problem with his country or that he is lacking patriotism. He might be critical of current politics, but of course that's not the same as being unpatriotic.

This is a good critical distillation of a very knotty concept. I like it!

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Apart from Harry there is one other person he blames for his treatment in prison and that's Darshavin in that great episode 8.4. And that scene, when he accuses Darshavin of having him kept in solitary confinement and having beaten and tortured him, for me is also the moment when he manages to really break free from the power that man still had over him, at least to a certain extent.

I’m not sure Lucas blames Darshavin for anything exactly. One of the things that so impressed me about the way Spooks chose to deal with the continuing theme of Lucas’ post-release reality was the mature and complex approach taken by the show in depicting the relationships in which he was situated before, during and after his time in prison. I will definitely return to this when I write up 8.4 (whenever that turns out to be!), but what really strikes me about the relationship between Lucas and Oleg, on one level at least, is the extent to which it seems both men are entirely aware of the necessity of their respective parts in the sustenance of the relationship. Oleg’s part required him to interrogate someone (that was his ‘reward’, remember, for bravery in Russia’s war with Afghanistan), and Lucas’ part required him to be interrogated. There is a classical existential theme at work here about the role of truth in torture (Sartre really must have been a great guest at parties ).

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  My impression is that Lucas has probably always been very meticulous, careful, methodical and controlled. For 8 years he had no control whatsoever over his life... But again I think it's nothing abnormal, it's nothing which would hint at severe psychological problems.

I have to say, I do think you are under-estimating the effects of the kind of institutional and cultural control to which Lucas would have been subjected in prison. No one is suggesting that Lucas is a psychological wreck. But it is quite clear from the narrative structure of seasons 7/8, and the rhetorical function of this character within it, that Lucas is different now. It doesn’t have to mean he is in need of hospitalisation or medication, and I think you are right to shy away from the idea of abnormality. However, I think it is important to accept that Lucas has experienced a catastrophic trauma that it was almost entirely beyond his ability to control. For eight years he was essentially invisible to anyone who was not actively trying to intimidate, injure or otherwise subdue him in some way. We cannot think this will have had no effect on his thinking or his behaviour.

(25-11-2010 03:28 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  (And by the way, as for me the JB story never happened and Lucas is still alive, I'm using present tense when writing about him).

I’m with you all the way on that one, right down to the use of the present tense XX (although, I think I may have allowed Lucas to die in the explosion at the end of season 8. I haven’t quite made up my mind.)

Finally (finally!): I am going to be a pedant again... because I am a pedant. Harry’s reference to ‘John’ in the rooftop scene of 9.8 is in fact Regnum Defende, the motto of the Secret Service. It means “defend the realm”, and is invoked by Harry as a means of underlining the extent of ‘John’s’ betrayal. I’m done being pedantic now

(25-11-2010 11:41 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 10:59 AM)Belle Wrote:  He longes to be the pre-russia Lucas, but somehow he lost that person whilst in prison.
Everything he does is a quest to try to become that Lucas again.

I understand what you mean when you say this, but I’m not convinced Lucas does actually want to ‘be’ his pre-Moscow self in the way you suggest. I think the situation is rather more complex. It will almost certainly be very important to Lucas now that his time in prison not be dismissed as an eight year black hole. The initial expression on his face in 7.1 when Malcolm says: “Is it really eight years?” is one almost of irritation, then confusion and disappointment, before softening into conciliation and the placatory comment about Russian prisons being like holiday camps: “They have mattresses and everything.” Lucas is beginning to realise here that those eight years will never mean the same to other people as they do to him. He will actually become, in some ways, quite protective of those years. By the time of 8.7 he is even able to make jokes about them, characterising them to the Hindu translator as an: ”eight year reading sabbatical”. That time belongs to him – it is literally part of him, written on his skin - and it is for him to make sure it continues to have meaning. Undoing that time, reversing through the black hole, is unthinkable. To do so would be to strip that huge portion of his time, and all the pieces of his life that went into making it, of any value. I think Lucas probably looks fondly on his pre-Moscow self, in the same way he would at childhood pictures. But I think he recognises it would be dangerous to think he could be that person now, and that it would be equally dangerous to want that.

I'm not sure you get what I'm trying to say with this .
I don't think Lucas wants to errase the 8 years in prison, because they are indeed very important and indeed a serious part of him. Anyway, such a dark period can't ever be really whipped out, I think.
I get the feeling, however, that he wants, or wishes, to be able to be the pre-russia Lucas in terms of feelings. We, as a viewer, know little or nothing about the pre-russia Lucas, but I can imagine that he was a lot happier and felt more sure of himself and of who he was (NOT including S9, here, simply because it's easier to make my point ). I really think that he's striving to feel the way he felt before his ordeal in Russia, that it is his ambition to feel safe, trusted and secure again. Not to forget the pain, but to be able to make it more bearable in one way or the other.

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(25-11-2010 08:22 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 07:59 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Harry's line was "Pactum Serva, whatever the cost", meaning that he would defend the country whatever the cost, he was saying this to Lucas's realization that Maya had been sacrificed for nothing and Harry didn't do a damn thing because to Harry, it was all about the faith and the service.

Harry always expects his people to be strong enough to take it, not realizing that not everyone is like him, maybe now faced with what happened to Lucas, it will make him realize, although I doubt it. Harry Pearce didn't try hard enough to save Lucas, he will always be about the service. He sacrificed innocent lives for the greater good, his agents for the greater good, so what's two more lives with Maya and Lucas.

Ahh, I see. Well yeah, that makes sense. The ends always justify the means for Harry. That's why he needs Ruth, to remind him that "people aren't just chess pieces".

It's very sad really. Harry is almost an embodiment of the terrorists he fights. At the end of the day, they're all fighting for 'the greater good', no matter who gets caught up in the process. As Kachimov said "there will always be another courageous young man to take his place".

I second this feeling! I do think Harry didn't do what he could to help or 'save' Lucas. Not when he was IN prison, not when he was released (and not when he was JB, this story still doesn't work for me, but it is an other example of Harry leaving Lucas behind).

I have no idea how a secret service really works in terms of moral guidance and support to its officers, but isn't Harry obliged to help his officers, also mentaly ? I mean it's in everybodies interest that 'the defenders of the realm' are mentaly sane, in order to do their job at their best!
Since Harry is head of section D, I can imagine that it is part of his job to look out for his officers, that, like some of you suggested, he should be some kind of father figure to them.
But to me, he seems bothered almost if his officers show human traits. (Although he seems to become somewhat more human towards Ruth in S9).
It is a shame that he treats his 'mignons' like they are pieces of a machine, if one goes down, it can be replaced? I'm not saying Harry has no feelings what so ever, (he shows mourning if an officer dies, he was willing to talk to Ros when Adam died), but it doesn't seem enough to me.

I think al this coldness is some sort of defence mechanism.(that doesn't make it right, of course!)

Sacrificing innocent lives for the 'greater good' is what they call 'collateral damage' isn't it? I think that you are inclined to loose a part of your humanity when you are in this line of work, because you wouldn't be able to live with yourself if you don't reduce it to mathematics and simple numbers. But I also think it's going to bite you in the back at some point, as we are beginning to see with Harry.
I guess when you are in a war and you are on the 'right' side you are a hero, when you are on the other side, you are a terrorist.

Harry could have and should have done more for Lucas. Ruth was suspicious of Lucas's actions in series 9 but Harry dismissed them, why? Even Alec tells Harry he may not be able to save Lucas and Albany, well I saw very little of Harry trying to save Lucas. Even CO19 appeared to have orders to shoot to kill when they killed the guy in the hoodie. Harry could have stopped this all from happening and stopped Lucas going after Vaughn at the end of 9.7, so why didn't he?
In 7.1 Harry stated he was responsible for '(lucas's) mental and physical well being'.

Perhaps I should delete this post because it is starting to sound as though I actually believe series 9!!

(26-11-2010 02:37 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Harry could have and should have done more for Lucas. Ruth was suspicious of Lucas's actions in series 9 but Harry dismissed them, why? Even Alec tells Harry he may not be able to save Lucas and Albany, well I saw very little of Harry trying to save Lucas. Even CO19 appeared to have orders to shoot to kill when they killed the guy in the hoodie. Harry could have stopped this all from happening and stopped Lucas going after Vaughn at the end of 9.7, so why didn't he?
In 7.1 Harry stated he was responsible for '(lucas's) mental and physical well being'.

Perhaps I should delete this post because it is starting to sound as though I actually believe series 9!!

Well we didn't see a lot of Harry 'being responsible for Lucas', did we!
I ask myself the same question: why did Harry treated Lucas the way he did? It feels like he totally left him standing in the cold from the moment Lucas was captured by the Russians!
I really would like to know how their relation towards eachother was before Lucas was imprisoned!