(27-11-2010 04:23 PM)Forever Secret Wrote:  When I first watched it I went into shock...Asking her to marry him... was fine.. but at a colleagues funeral?... oh dear Harry

Maybe in S10 he'll ask again only this time at the right moment...

...Perhaps at Lucas' funeral ?? If he gets down on one knee, with a ring, and leaves out the bit about scraping bits of Lucas off the Ford Datson, he may just stand a chance this time

(27-11-2010 04:47 PM)binkie Wrote:  I'm posting in this thread for the first time. Hello!.

I have watched this show from the start, and am thoroughly invested in the history of the relationship between Harry and Ruth. I am curious, though, to understand exactly why there is so much support for the idea of Harry and Ruth as a happy (romantic) couple. Do we really think that Harry is right for Ruth, or even good for her, just because he loves her? What would Ruth get out of a long term emotional relationship with Harry except the knowledge that she is loved? She had this kind of relationship with George, and it does not seem to have been what she needed.

It seems to me sometimes that Harry puts a lot of invisible pressure on Ruth to be human and emotionally capable - perhaps because these are areas in which he feels himself to be lacking - and I wonder whether he is more in love with the idea of Ruth than he is actually in love with her as a complex and flawed human being.

I am not trying to undermine the optimism of this thread (I am a big fan of cheesecake myself). I just wonder what it is that we are in fact so invested in when we look at this relationship.

Welcome binkie to this super thread. I think the base reason that people want them to be happy and a couple, is that they have been through so much unhappiness and sacrificed so much, for their colleagues and their country. They are both a little older, and time is getting shorter. They deserve to be with the one they love, before there is no time left.

I think both put each other up on a pedestal to start with. I think Harry always loved Ruth for mind, body, and soul. I think with Ruth, it was more soul to start with. I think Ruth is still on the pedestal for Harry, and always will be, no matter what she does. For Ruth, I think Harry is more her equal now and she has seen the cracks forming in series 9, some of which she has not liked.

It is also great TV, super to watch, and something to look forward to for the rest of the year. You rarely get such chemistry on TV. Maybe it was there with Gene and Alex in Ashes, Niles and Daphnie in Fraser, but not to such a degree.

(27-11-2010 05:46 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  ...Perhaps at Lucas' funeral ?? If he gets down on one knee, with a ring, and leaves out the bit about scraping bits of Lucas off the Ford Datson, he may just stand a chance this time

Welcome binkie to this super thread. I think the base reason that people want them to be happy and a couple, is that they have been through so much unhappiness and sacrificed so much, for their colleagues and their country. They are both a little older, and time is getting shorter. They deserve to be with the one they love, before there is no time left.

I think both put each other up on a pedestal to start with. I think Harry always loved Ruth for mind, body, and soul. I think with Ruth, it was more soul to start with. I think Ruth is still on the pedestal for Harry, and always will be, no matter what she does. For Ruth, I think Harry is more her equal now and she has seen the cracks forming in series 9, some of which she has not liked.

It is also great TV, super to watch, and something to look forward to for the rest of the year. You rarely get such chemistry on TV. Maybe it was there with Gene and Alex in Ashes, Niles and Daphnie in Fraser, but not to such a degree.

Haha perfect!

Exactly, everything they've both been through, in the end they deserve some happiness at least.

I think Harry is still in love with Ruth, not the idea... he's always loved her, it just took a huge shove from Juliet of all people to make him realise it. With Ruth I agree it started as soul, she had so much respect for Harry and then as time went on, ended up falling for him,
But Ruth was always the one who seemed to shy away from the emotion back especially in S5, now in S8-9 she's warming to it more, because now she knows that he loves her and she knows him. Remember Ruth was the one who asked him not to say those words in 5.5, it seems as though she was scared of it... but in S8 and 9, not so much

I would love to see their relationship move forward in S10...*Contemplates the idea of locking them in Harry's office and chucking the key*
It's moved forward in S8 and S9, but the will they/ Wont they only works to an extent and then gets repetitive... I don't know if I could watch another Series of it
But if they were a couple, I'm not sure how it would be written at all, the only real Grid based couple I've seen was Adam and Fiona, usualy our Spooks guys get hooked up with the CIA haha

Ahhh yes Gene and Alex... probably tied as my favourite TV couple at the moment along side Ruth and Harry... lets hope Ruth and Harry get a happier ending than Gene and Alex did though... it's been what 5 months now? I'm still angry at the ending
Chemistry like H/R and G/A is difficult to find on TV these days, it's as much down to the actors (More so in H/R's case) than the writters...
I think thought the Chemistry with Ruth and Harry is more subtle and hidden, it's not fiery in any way it's just there... I think someone said on the S2 DVD H/R are soul mates... which then developed into something more

(27-11-2010 04:47 PM)binkie Wrote:  I'm posting in this thread for the first time. Hello!.

Well, hello there Binkie! Good to see you wandering out of the Lucas thread. I don't understand most of what you post over there, but I can certainly appreciate the passion behind them!

(27-11-2010 04:47 PM)binkie Wrote:  I am curious, though, to understand exactly why there is so much support for the idea of Harry and Ruth as a happy (romantic) couple. Do we really think that Harry is right for Ruth, or even good for her, just because he loves her? What would Ruth get out of a long term emotional relationship with Harry except the knowledge that she is loved? She had this kind of relationship with George, and it does not seem to have been what she needed.

For me, the draw is that it is a complicated relationship acted out on an mature playing field by two very flawed characters by two brilliant actors-of-a-certain-age. I do not have specific answers to the above questions, (IMO) because that is precisely what the progression of their "relationship" is about. It is hardly over. I am of the mind that they do not need to be married or even together. I just want it to be resolved in a way that works for both of them. Maybe that resolution will be that love does not conquer all? Fine. There are others who would disagree with me.

(27-11-2010 04:47 PM)binkie Wrote:  It seems to me sometimes that Harry puts a lot of invisible pressure on Ruth to be human and emotionally capable - perhaps because these are areas in which he feels himself to be lacking - and I wonder whether he is more in love with the idea of Ruth than he is actually in love with her as a complex and flawed human being.

My opinion is that they do it to each other. He expects her to be his "moral compass," she expects him to be "the still point of the turning world." S9 as it pertains to HR has been about both of them coming to terms with the other as they really are. The thing about Ruth & Harry and why I am so invested in it is because the best of who they are as individuals is what keeps them apart.

(27-11-2010 04:47 PM)binkie Wrote:  I am not trying to undermine the optimism of this thread (I am a big fan of cheesecake myself). I just wonder what it is that we are in fact so invested in when we look at this relationship.

Oh, Binkie, you'd have to work a lot harder than this to undermine my optimism! When it comes down to it, it is simply all in good fun. Nothing deeper than that, really.

Why do I want them to be together?

Well, there is no logical answer to that, in my opinion. We all identify with certain characters and storylines more than others due to our own personal frameworks from which we view the world. I admire both these characters immensely for their approach to duty to their country, and I love the fact that neither is very good at this relationship thing. It's awkward, and messy, and therefore more real than many other relationships depicted on television. There is definite chemistry between them, and I love the fact that it developed so gradually, and almost under the radar. I find it very sad when people who are obviously in love with each other can't overcome the obstacles, whether they be real or imagined, and at least give a relationship a go. You'll never know for sure whether it will work or not, but you owe it to yourself to try and find out. And like TL said, they both deserve some happiness after all they've been through.

As to whether Harry is in love with the idea of Ruth rather than with Ruth herself, I posit that it is impossible for one human being to fully know another human being. We all have pictures of the other people in our lives in our heads, but that picture is always our own view of that person, and can never be a fully accurate picture. I think both of them had more idealised views of each other before Ruth left, but that has changed since she's come back, and now they are more aware of the other's shortcomings.

They shouldn't get together just because Harry loves Ruth, and she must figure out for herself what it is that she truly needs. She does love Harry though, and perhaps she owes it to herself to find out whether a relationship with him could work, rather than regretting not even trying when she's 80 and all alone.

(27-11-2010 06:32 PM)Silktie Wrote:  They shouldn't get together just because Harry loves Ruth, and she must figure out for herself what it is that she truly needs. She does love Harry though, and perhaps she owes it to herself to find out whether a relationship with him could work, rather than regretting not even trying when she's 80 and all alone.

Exactly, I don't think any one could have said it better
I think Harry would happily try and make a relationship with Ruth work if of course she wanted it as well... it's Ruth that would have more trouble with it, I agree, she really does owe it to herself at least to try and see where it would lead them both...
If you don't try you'll never know any of the outcomes possible,
The worst outcome is only one of many possible

(27-11-2010 04:47 PM)binkie Wrote:  I have watched this show from the start, and am thoroughly invested in the history of the relationship between Harry and Ruth. I am curious, though, to understand exactly why there is so much support for the idea of Harry and Ruth as a happy (romantic) couple. Do we really think that Harry is right for Ruth, or even good for her, just because he loves her? What would Ruth get out of a long term emotional relationship with Harry except the knowledge that she is loved? She had this kind of relationship with George, and it does not seem to have been what she needed.

I am not trying to undermine the optimism of this thread (I am a big fan of cheesecake myself). I just wonder what it is that we are in fact so invested in when we look at this relationship.

Do I really need a reason?

It's one of the few things I don't want to ask 'why?' about as it will make me choose a reason for my adoration.
It may taint the adoration as a whole if I do that.

In this case I'd rather sit on my 'I'm not listening to reason' cloud and eat cheesecake until my hearts content.

Binkie, good to see you straying over here!

Most of my reasons for wanting them to take the plunge have already been mentioned, but I don't think anyone has mentioned their intellectual compatability. They know all the same cultural references, one starts quoting something and the other finishes it off. I don't imagine Ruth did this with George, in fact she probably had to hide that side of herself away.

I don't think I can find a reason back up my adoration for this couple, as Silktie said, you get invested in certain characters, because somewhat you see yourself in them or they get your simpathy, there's no explanation you just feel it.

I love their akwardness, the difficulty they find to deal with the other, I see this so sad, heartbreaking and at the same time sweet and endearing.

I also love their relationship development. At first it was more idealisation, I'm partly glad Ruth left and then came back, this made them evolve, as some of you have mention, she now sees Harry in a different way, they are more honest with each other, sometimes brutally honest...

(27-11-2010 06:32 PM)Silktie Wrote:  As to whether Harry is in love with the idea of Ruth rather than with Ruth herself, I posit that it is impossible for one human being to fully know another human being. We all have pictures of the other people in our lives in our heads, but that picture is always our own view of that person, and can never be a fully accurate picture. I think both of them had more idealised views of each other before Ruth left, but that has changed since she's come back, and now they are more aware of the other's shortcomings.

I totally agree with this, not even us have a proper image of ourselves...

---

(27-11-2010 04:47 PM)binkie Wrote:  Do we really think that Harry is right for Ruth, or even good for her, just because he loves her? What would Ruth get out of a long term emotional relationship with Harry except the knowledge that she is loved? She had this kind of relationship with George, and it does not seem to have been what she needed.

The thing is that you don't choose who you love, I love Harry and Ruth, I didn't choose it, it just happened
And if a relationship with a person, that doesn't mean it won't work with another... Ruth loves Harry, why would she have given everything for saving Harry's job? I can't remember who said it in this thread but the one who wrote it explained it perfectly: She loved George but she wasn't in love with him. That's the main difference, so I don't think we can compare the relationship she had with George (which was working, IMO, until those bad men came to their house) with the future relationship she can have with Harry (fingers crossed).

(28-11-2010 12:02 AM)Beatriz Wrote:  The thing is that you don't choose who you love, I just love Harry and Ruth, I didn't choose it, it only happened
And if a relationship with a person, that doesn't mean it won't work with another... Ruth loves Harry, why would she have given everything for saving Harry's job? I can't remember who said it in this thread but the one who wrote it explained it perfectly: She loved George but she wasn't in love with him. That's the main difference, so I don't think we can compare the relationship she had with George (which was working, IMO, until those bad men came to their house) with the future relationship she can have with Harry (fingers crossed).

That would be me who said that
Ruth loved George and Nico, of course she loved Nico, because he was the son she could never have, but she didn't love George like she loves Harry, I think even when she was away in Cyprus she was always in love with Harry, but she tried to move on, because she knew she could never go back to that life again, but her feelings for him didn't disappear, they subsided so she could try and move on with her life, then of course she was kidnapped and S8 and 9 happened So now I'm hoping she can move on again and just give Harry a chance, she'll never know if a relationship with him will work unless she tries

(28-11-2010 12:02 AM)Beatriz Wrote:  I don't think I can find a reason back up my adoration for this couple, as Silktie said, you get invested in certain characters, because somewhat you see yourself in them or they get your simpathy, there's no explanation you just feel it.

I love their akwardness, the difficulty they find to deal with the other, I see this so sad, heartbreaking and at the same time sweet and endearing.

I also love their relationship development. At first it was more idealisation, I'm partly glad Ruth left and then came back, this made them evolve, as some of you have mention, she now sees Harry in a different way, they are more honest with each other, sometimes brutally honest...

Bingo!
If i'd have tried breaking it down i would have attempted to say the same thing. Pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

I also strongly agree with the statement that you can't really choose who you like in the end and that your view of yourself (and some events in your life) can be seen reflected in some characters more than others; which will obviously affect this 'non-decision'.

They become easier to empathise with if you see yourself in them. You become sort of attached and really wish them the best.

(You see, this is why i try to not explain this issue in my own words... i sound like a moron. )