(02-12-2010 12:54 AM)Byatil Wrote:  

(02-12-2010 12:51 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(01-12-2010 11:07 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I just don't think the writers had enough time to explore the plot properly, as they were under pressure to complete the scripts to a deadline. Without properly evaluating the plot, they couldn't have noticed the ridiculous plot-holes. I can only surmise that they had to write something shocking yet entertaining in a very short amount of time... either that, or they were just incredibly blasé about the entire thing and thought they could get away with being a bit lazy

Well, as a writer myself, all I can say is that the whole "under pressure and deadline" excuse is not gonna cut it with me. Coming up with a logical, shocking, and entertaining plot is not difficult, there are plenty of plausible yet shocking ideas and twists they could have easily gone with, instead they chose the dumbest way. If a simple college student such as myself can come up with a plausible storyline, then I don't see why the writers (who are paid to write it) can't. It's an insult to the fans' intelligence. And frankly a shame and disgrace to all writers everywhere.

Well yes, that's what confuses me. I'm hardly a professional writer, yet I could easily brainstorm a number of different story arcs that could have been used for the series. Perhaps there was someone who was being especially pushy, and refused to let their idea slide? I just can't believe that this is the best they could come up with; this must have been a final resort, or at least a plan B!

Whoever came up with this ridiculous storyline will now be shot! I will come after them with a giant flamethrower or something!

Hopefully some intelligent person will show up to write Series 10 and actually explain what the hell is going on. That would be nice.

BTW, have you read Harry's Diary? It's an interesting book indeed, filled with juicy details, although now I wonder if they will release an updated version to accommodate the info that we have learned since Series 7, I mean, the book was written before Series 7 came out, and things have changed, especially with the Lucas storyline that I don't think was mentioned in the diary.

(02-12-2010 12:59 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Hopefully some intelligent person will show up to write Series 10 and actually explain what the hell is going on. That would be nice.

BTW, have you read Harry's Diary? It's an interesting book indeed, filled with juicy details, although now I wonder if they will release an updated version to accommodate the info that we have learned since Series 7, I mean, the book was written before Series 7 came out, and things have changed, especially with the Lucas storyline that I don't think was mentioned in the diary.

A case of Dum Spiro, Spero perhaps?

No, sadly I've never heard of it before! Sounds fascinating though, I'm sure it really helps with your understanding of the characters. If only we could have a nice little featurette of events from each characters individual perspective in the form of diaries...

I can only hope that S10 holds some answers as to why S9 was carried out in the way it was. Please, oh great Gods of Kudos, we need answers!

(02-12-2010 01:05 AM)Byatil Wrote:  A case of Dum Spiro, Spero perhaps?

One can only hope.

(02-12-2010 01:05 AM)Byatil Wrote:  No, sadly I've never heard of it before! Sounds fascinating though, I'm sure it really helps with your understanding of the characters. If only we could have a nice little featurette of events from each characters individual perspective in the form of diaries...

It certainly is an interesting book, it goes through Harry's career from his early days to him taking over Section D til end of Series 6 I believe. I think they should update this to include just juicy Lucas/Harry stories. We know that Tom's application caught Harry's eye so he recruited Tom, it'd be nice to see how Lucas came about.

Another story that the writers never explored.

(02-12-2010 01:05 AM)Byatil Wrote:  I can only hope that S10 holds some answers as to why S9 was carried out in the way it was. Please, oh great Gods of Kudos, we need answers!

Wouldn't be nice if say in Series 10 they discover that the whole Lucas/John/Albany thing was Russia and China's way out getting back at the UK for the whole Albany secrecy. I mean, what better way for them to win over or embarrass MI5 or take down Harry than using their own officer and making them think he's evil and turned traitor and stole Albany when really was Russia/China used MI5's most loyal soldier to kinda of twist the knife into MI5's heart and rub salt on the wound. Just imagine what emotional ramification that would be, for the team to realize that Lucas went to his death thinking he was a traitor when really he was the victim being used all along and they didn't save him.

I wouldn't mind if such a storyline were to be revealed, it would make a heck of a lot more sense why Series 9 was so patchy and convoluted.

(02-12-2010 01:18 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Wouldn't be nice if say in Series 10 they discover that the whole Lucas/John/Albany thing was Russia and China's way out getting back at the UK for the whole Albany secrecy. I mean, what better way for them to win over or embarrass MI5 or take down Harry than using their own officer and making them think he's evil and turned traitor and stole Albany when really was Russia/China used MI5's most loyal soldier to kinda of twist the knife into MI5's heart and rub salt on the wound. Just imagine what emotional ramification that would be, for the team to realize that Lucas went to his death thinking he was a traitor when really he was the victim being used all along and they didn't save him.

I wouldn't mind if such a storyline were to be revealed, it would make a heck of a lot more sense why Series 9 was so patchy and convoluted.

I agree. Write it now, Bravo.

(02-12-2010 09:21 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  

(02-12-2010 01:18 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Wouldn't be nice if say in Series 10 they discover that the whole Lucas/John/Albany thing was Russia and China's way out getting back at the UK for the whole Albany secrecy. I mean, what better way for them to win over or embarrass MI5 or take down Harry than using their own officer and making them think he's evil and turned traitor and stole Albany when really was Russia/China used MI5's most loyal soldier to kinda of twist the knife into MI5's heart and rub salt on the wound. Just imagine what emotional ramification that would be, for the team to realize that Lucas went to his death thinking he was a traitor when really he was the victim being used all along and they didn't save him.

I wouldn't mind if such a storyline were to be revealed, it would make a heck of a lot more sense why Series 9 was so patchy and convoluted.

I agree. Write it now, Bravo.

Hmmmm I should write it now and send it to the writers!

Well, either way, I'm planning a whole series of Spooks fics and an alternative Series 10 storyline as well. I've got a lot of work to do.

I think it shows just how 'awkward' the writing of series 9 appears to be, because I personally still can't decide whether Lucas was purposefully deceitful and Lucas was merely a legend created by John Bateman. Or as has been said that it was some sort of split-personality issue and Lucas could not remember John Bateman. I think the writing wavered between the two possibilities leaving a lot of ambiguity.
And lets face it, they didn't 100% kill off Lucas, we were left to assume he jumped.

(02-12-2010 02:38 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I think it shows just how 'awkward' the writing of series 9 appears to be, because I personally still can't decide whether Lucas was purposefully deceitful and Lucas was merely a legend created by John Bateman. Or as has been said that it was some sort of split-personality issue and Lucas could not remember John Bateman. I think the writing wavered between the two possibilities leaving a lot of ambiguity.
And lets face it, they didn't 100% kill off Lucas, we were left to assume he jumped.

I personally don't believe the split-personality route, because if Lucas really couldn't remember being John, then why would he have percieved those 8 years in prison as a sort of punishment or redemption for the things John had done, like Lucas said to Harry in 9.7 in that interrogation-scene?
And Lucas being a deceitful person, doesn't make sense at all, given the many facts wich proved that he was always willing to risk his life for his colleagues and his country.

I remain as baffled as anyone else here about the writing of S9 and the twist they gave to Lucas' personality
I can only hope that they will clear things out in S10, preferably in a more sensable way!
(Keeping my fingers crossed for Lucas not being dead, but I fear!!!)

Exactly, the split personality is supported by the fact that it took that suitcase to reminder Lucas about Maya and Vaughn to tell him that he was 'a killer that fell asleep and dreamt he was a hero....etc.' before become John.

(02-12-2010 03:05 PM)Belle Wrote:  I personally don't believe the split-personality route, because if Lucas really couldn't remember being John, then why would he have perceived those 8 years in prison as a sort of punishment or redemption for the things John had done, like Lucas said to Harry in 9.7 in that interrogation-scene?

But this indeed supports the theory that Lucas was merely a legend invented by John to hid his bombing of the Embassy.

I dislike the idea of a split personality because Spooks is not that sort of drama.
So I am left confused as to just what the writers were trying to portray. And I don't hold out much hope of any further explanation in series10, especially considering RA availability.

Perhaps we will discover in Series 10 that evil plot bunnies took over the writers' room and forced them to make this incoherent storyline about Lucas. And now the MI5 team has to save the world from evil plot bunnies! I could take this storyline!

Yeah, RA's availability doesn't give out much hope that Series 10 will give any decent explanation, who knows, I can only hope at this point.

I don't think split personality would be a bad way to go, Spooks may not be that type of drama but Lucas with his years spent being tortured has got to end up with psychological issues and it would certainly be pertinent for them to bring that to the forefront with maybe Lucas developing a harsher and darker personality that helped him survive 8 years in a Russian prison.

But the writing doesn't support the whole psychological issues at all, all the writing has told us is that our Lucas is really John Bateman who bombed an embassy, killed his friend for his passport, took over his job and decided he wanted to play hero, spent 8 years in prison and torture as self-punishment, and then when Vaughn came back, he suddenly remembered Maya and risked everything to go be with her. The writing is simply all over the place, one second Lucas is good, he's risking his life for his team, and next second he's some evil dude who just loves Maya. It's just completely crazy.

The writing seems to make it that John/Lucas has just been deceiving everyone all along and he knew exactly what he was doing, the lines and dialogs spoken points to that this isn't some mental split personality issue, that John/Lucas had been lying this whole time knowingly, that he was simply pretending to be a big hero and loves this heroic life.

Honestly a split personality would have been better, I mean, no NORMAL person just decide to blow up an embassy just to "be someone" and because he got stranded on a foreign continent! I'm sorry, but no sane person does that, they don't kill their friends for passports and then take over their job and play hero, this is not something that normal people do! I am crazy enough by normal human standards and my idea was only to steal a row-boat! Since when does being stranded on a foreign continent constitute as go blow up an embassy? I mean, he couldn't simply find a phone and call someone?

At this point looking at his stupidity, maybe I should be surprised that he got caught in Moscow....

So if the writers trying to illustrate that he's mentally insane, they failed to do a decent explanation, and if they're trying to illustrate that John/Lucas is simply evil, they failed to do a half-decent explanation of that as well.

The reasons we were given were half-ass, quickly glossed over, and it felt like the writers thought if they add in Beth saying all the things that the fans believed Lucas to be, that somehow the fans would be okay with the change. But I'm certainly not, it was a stupid explanation and weak one that Harry gave the Home Secretary about how John ended up as Lucas, any child with half a brain can see the gigantic plot hole the size of the moon. Just how bad is MI5 security? It's one thing to change your information after you gain access into the service, but I am to believe that after such a throughough vetting process that NO ONE saw the "real" Lucas North's face? No one thought, "oh hey, this guy looks different!" Surely SOMEONE in the vetting process would have at least seen a photograph? It's just ridiculous, you don't walk in for a interview and poof you're MI5, I've faced more security picking up my brother from day-care!!!!

The other thing that I found odd was that Lucas was apparently so... mentally impaired before he even joined MI5 and was captured in Russia. His mental issues post-Russia can all be explained through his torture and captivity, however we are offered no explanation as to why exactly John felt the need to "be somebody"? He supposedly had a promising future but just fell in with the wrong crowd... however, how can this argument be supported through anything Lucas has ever told us? Supposedly he grew up in "the Cumbrian countryside" with a "Methodist minister" for a Father. If we believe that to be true, surely Lucas would have had it drilled into him that drugs = bad? The involvement with the drugs trade could be perceived as him "rebelling against authority", but it still seems like an incredibly stupid thing for someone of Lucas' apparently high intelligence to do. If he's smart enough to create an entire persona and indeed, fool the national security service for 10 years+, then why exactly was he stupid enough to get involved in a drugs plot in the first place?

As to RA's availability... as I assume "The Hobbit" will largely be filmed in the New Zealand Summer (ie now), wouldn't that leave him free for filming in British Summertime? Even if only for a few 'flashback' scenes, or something similar. I have no idea of any other known filming commitments of his, so please correct me if I'm wrong!