(14-01-2011 02:36 AM)Byatil Wrote:  Lucas' relationship with Sarah is something I'm keen to analyse in a bit more depth. I thought it was strange that he should so willingly accept her apology in 8.4 after finding out that she had been attempting to spy on him. They have a massive argument, yet as soon as she is taken hostage all is forgiven? Why is Lucas so quick to trust the people who hurt him? A symptom of Stockholm Syndrome? (as Harry might like to point out!)

I don't know if this will make any sense.......

But I always thought that Lucas's relationship with Sarah and his willingness to continue to be with her and love her stemmed from this need to be loved, feel loved, and feel like he could achieve something and be useful and important in someone's eyes. Part of me thinks that it comes from the loss of Elizabeta, and another part comes from what he suffered through in those 8 years and his return back to MI5.

When he came back he lost Elizabeta, the love of his life. He obviously cared so much about her but he finds out that she has moved on, and he isn't important to her anymore and it's a sudden and harsh loss for him to deal with, and then Sarah comes into his life and there's a part of him that feels like he can be loved again and be an important person in someone's life, and that since Sarah understands his job, she would not walk away and hate him like Elizabeta did.

And then there's the part of him that needs to feel like he can achieve something and mean something to another person after he was humiliated and degraded into nothing through his 8 years in Russia. And considering in his return, he rather feels like people have moved on without him and he's not all that important to MI5, having Sarah makes him feel like he's needed, and he is not just "nothing", that he can achieve something and mean something special to Sarah.

I don't think he really loved her the way he says he does, I think what he was in love with was the idea of her and what she can bring to him and how she makes him feel. He needed someone to fill that void and emptiness in his life and Sarah did it, and I think that's why he was also so keen to hold onto it til the very end. He needed it, he fears losing it would destroy him.

I think that's the part of him that's never really healed after what happened in Russia, a part of him fears to be un-important and not achieve and be useful.

That made a lot of sense, Bravo, especially the bit about 'what he was in love with was the idea of her'. There never was a great deal of love in the relationship, even Lucas admitted that they never really talked (in 9.8, and Sarah replied they had better things to do) and was mostly a physical relationship. I don't see the fact that Sarah was going to bug the flat as that much of a problem to their relationship, that sort of thing probably happens a lot, after all Harry bug his flat when got back from Russia. They even thought that they might be monitor at the very start of their relationship, hence they went to Claridges' Hotel.
As Byatil says though, it is interesting how Lucas is quick to trust those who hurt him, because even after he found out about Sarah's involvement with Nightingale he continued to care for her.

(14-01-2011 02:11 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  As Byatil says though, it is interesting how Lucas is quick to trust those who hurt him, because even after he found out about Sarah's involvement with Nightingale he continued to care for her.

Sometimes I think that's Lucas's weak-point, there is a part of him that is the cold efficient MI5 agent who doesn't hesitate and does his job, but then every once in a while when he gets into these situations where he gets hurt by the people around him and then turns back around to trust them, I just see this lost little boy somehow hoping that if he just keeps on being loyal and trust them, maybe he will become important or needed in their eyes. Like a loyal dog that keeps being loyal despite horrible treatment. Unfortunately, I don't think Lucas ever got that kind of compassion since he returned. Adam tried but he wasn't around long enough to do much, and Ros, god knows Ros tried, but then again, she's not much for small-talk despite her attempts to try and protect Lucas. But still in the end he's kinda slammed with this harsh reality that the man (Harry) that maybe he had at one point in his young life had idolized and worshiped didn't really care about him as much as he thought he did.

And I think it's that desperate need to feel like he's a part of something that fuels a huge part of Lucas's loyalty and that recklessness and bravery to put it all on the line to protect his team and Harry. He's trying to show them that he can do the job, that he can be important, and that he doesn't want them to forget him or leave him alone.

The more I think about it, the more sad I am that nobody bothered to try and help Lucas deal with this. The people in his life that he should have been able to trust were the ones so quick to shun him aside. It's no wonder it drove him to such craziness in Series 9. And losing Ros probably didn't help considering she seems to be the only one who was in tune with Lucas's feelings, the way a big sister is like, something that I always love Ros for.

In all honesty, Harry had a lot of chances to turn things around with Lucas but he never bothered to take the time. Maybe if he had, maybe he showed just one ounce that he cared about what Lucas went through, then maybe, just maybe things would have been different in Series 9. In the end, Harry's own coldness towards his team was his own downfall.

BravoNine I agree with your view on Lucas and Harry.
I have such a feeling of sadness for Lucas he deserved so much support but got nothing I often wondered if he was an embarrassment to Harry because he came back from Russia, though Ros said Harry tried to get him back but there was no proof that I could see. I wonder if Lucas had pushed the point what evidence could Harry show him that he did try. I think Harry was quite happy in his Ivory Tower whilst his officers got on with the job so was totally unaware of any personal issues that could cloud their working lives until it exploded, the place could have gone up in flames and he wouldn't have known.

Personally I hope Harry does not get off scot free he didn't function as a boss should and certainly failed in his duty of care to Lucas and the writers do the honourable thing and redeem Lucas.

(14-01-2011 05:25 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I don't think he really loved her the way he says he does, I think what he was in love with was the idea of her and what she can bring to him and how she makes him feel. He needed someone to fill that void and emptiness in his life and Sarah did it, and I think that's why he was also so keen to hold onto it til the very end. He needed it, he fears losing it would destroy him.

I love that analogy, "he was in love with the idea of her" and nothing more. Very apt.

It's just interesting that a man who is supposedly very logical in the way he conducts himself would suddenly be so blinded by a hint of affection. I agree with your analysis that "he fears losing it would destroy him" - and I suppose in a way, Sarah helped him overcome that? By the end of S8 he doesn't seem particularly bothered as to whether she lives or dies; yet in S9 (sorry to mention it!) he makes the same fatal mistake of obsessing over the idea of a relationship, rather than seeing it for what it actually is. I suppose we have to give the S9 writers a little credit for making that link between Sarah and Maya

It seems that Lucas holds more value in a physical relationship than anything else; his relationships with Sarah and Maya were rather superficial. This would make sense in terms of his time in Russia, where the only physical contact he would have had would supposedly have been the unpleasant kind.

So then why is he so keen to brush Ros off whenever she attempts to talk to him? He's extremely guarded when it comes to his thoughts and feelings (the line "I know every inch of your mind" comes to mind; Darshavin represents the ultimate submission on Lucas' part I suppose, as he was forced to somewhat surrender his mind - the one place where he should feel secure) yet is rather flippant in his physical conduct. Why is he so reluctant to let someone inside his head? Because he doesn't trust anyone? Because pain is weakness (as I seem to remember Jo mentioning in 7.1)?

Obviously he wants to prove himself to Harry as being an authoritative, competent officer. Although he seems closer to Ros than anyone else, he still neglects to tell her anything of consequence. Does he think she'll report back to Harry and he'll be forcibly removed from his job?

Everything seems to centre around the fact that he wants and craves Harry's approval. Any sign of weakness jeopardises that, so he remains extremely guarded.

Apologies to drag S9 back into the discussion, but it seems to me that Vaughn represents one of Lucas' major weaknesses; he knows something that Lucas doesn't want other people to know. He has suddenly completely lost control of that part of his life, when he has been so careful to never reveal more than he needs to.

On a slightly unrelated note; I thought it was a nice development in Lucas and Ros' relationship in 8.4, when Lucas confronts Darshavin in order to try and obtain the code to disarm the bomb. He unleashes a lot of emotion in that scene and implies his suicide attempt - whilst Ros and Sarah listen in. This seems quite significant. Lucas seems to place more trust in women than he does men, and it's interesting that after practically refusing to answer Ros and Sarah's questions earlier in the episode, he is now happy to reveal some fairly personal details of his relationship with Darshavin. What caused him to lose those inhibitions? Was it the fact that Darshavin abused his trust? Or simply that he had no other choice, if he wanted to get Sarah out alive?

I feel I have raised a lot of questions in this (and have hopefully managed to answer a few of them in a rather haphazard way) so I look forward to hearing what everyone else thinks!

/probably irrelevant point ahead!/

I was doing some work in my Lit class the other day on the origins of names used in The Kite Runner, which prompted me to wonder whether the original writers of Lucas' character might have chosen his name for the etymology of it.

Lucas is a variation of the name Luke, meaning "light" or "illumination".
John is a biblical name, and is said to mean "God is gracious".

These names seem like interesting choices - Lucas being the "bringer of light", and John having the link to God (connection with Blake and his father [being a Methodist minister]). Obviously they may well have been chosen simply because they sound nice or give a certain impression about the character, but nonetheless, I decided to try searching for a few other character names and interestingly:

Rosalind means "hard worker"
Connie means "to be knowledgeable"
Ruth means "friend" or "compassion"
Harry means "home ruler"
Malcolm means "follower" or "devotee"
Sarah means "princess"
Tariq means "nocturnal visitor" or "morning star"
Joanne means "God is gracious" whilst Josephine means "he will enlarge"

Just a little food for thought!

Byatil

That is so interesting about the names thank you for sharing it. When I write I always research the character name so that it is appropriate to the person and his role in the story so to speak, sometimes the name may conjure up an idea of what the person is like in your minds eye.

A character's name and meaning certainly does help to inform us of what could possibly be the character's purpose or personality be like in a certain story. For example, my character that I created for my Spooks fanfic is called "Patryk" and the name of "Patrick" means Noble, which fits my character in how I want to describe him.

Somehow I don't think the original intent was for Lucas to be a crazy evil person who ends up betraying his team. They always stated in interviews and stuff that Lucas was a hero, sure he did a few sketchy things but was ultimately a heroic character. All I can say is that his ending certainly wasn't heroic at all.

In fact, they certainly could have made the story have a much better tie-in to the mission in Moscow and the 8 years he suffered in Russia than this silly John-Maya stuff.

(14-01-2011 10:48 PM)Byatil Wrote:  On a slightly unrelated note; I thought it was a nice development in Lucas and Ros' relationship in 8.4, when Lucas confronts Darshavin in order to try and obtain the code to disarm the bomb. He unleashes a lot of emotion in that scene and implies his suicide attempt - whilst Ros and Sarah listen in. This seems quite significant. Lucas seems to place more trust in women than he does men, and it's interesting that after practically refusing to answer Ros and Sarah's questions earlier in the episode, he is now happy to reveal some fairly personal details of his relationship with Darshavin. What caused him to lose those inhibitions? Was it the fact that Darshavin abused his trust? Or simply that he had no other choice, if he wanted to get Sarah out alive?

By the way, that is one of my all time favourite scenes.

I feel I have raised a lot of questions in this (and have hopefully managed to answer a few of them in a rather haphazard way) so I look forward to hearing what everyone else thinks!

I think in this scene Lucas is really only talking to Darshavin, forcing Darshavin to remember to foundation of their relationship, and convincing Darshavin that he is not going to give in to him. Lucas will resist Darshavin just as he had done in prison. The fact that Sarah and Ros were listening in couldn't be helped and therefore Lucas had to open up himself to obtain the codes, again sacrificing himself for the greater cause.

(15-01-2011 06:42 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I think in this scene Lucas is really only talking to Darshavin, forcing Darshavin to remember to foundation of their relationship, and convincing Darshavin that he is not going to give in to him. Lucas will resist Darshavin just as he had done in prison. The fact that Sarah and Ros were listening in couldn't be helped and therefore Lucas had to open up himself to obtain the codes, again sacrificing himself for the greater cause.

I agree, this only seems to further reinforce just how much Lucas is willing to risk and sacrifice for his country and his team. He is willing to push and confront his own demons from a most horrible past because he knows this country and his team need him to do so. If he has to bare his vulnerable side and risk it all, he will.

It's the same as when Harry asked him to remember back to his torture and Sugar-Horse, you can tell Lucas's obvious disdain and anger, but in the end he did what was asked of him at the high price of his own emotional suffering because Harry needed it, because he has to protect his country.

It's his full-on loyalty to his team and country that just makes Series 9 all the more of a contradiction, especially the whole John blowing up an embassy!