Right, so I’m a bit late to this discussion (curse you, Real Life!!), but I’m lurching in anyway, because this is a properly absorbing subject. I’m going to be tiresomely analytical on some of the little details. I don’t do this to offend anyone, or to be needlessly difficult: it’s just the way my brain works. I’m sorry if anyone is annoyed by what follows.

(14-01-2011 05:25 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  ...I always thought that Lucas's relationship with Sarah and his willingness to continue to be with her and love her stemmed from this need to be loved, feel loved, and feel like he could achieve something and be useful and important in someone's eyes.

There is something in this ^^ that I have been thinking about for a while, but I have never known quite where to include it. We have talked a lot in various Lucas-centric threads about the extent to which the character’s experience of prison has lead to his becoming and being the person we first meet at the spy swap. We have tended to concentrate mainly on Lucas’ own self-determining actions and processes – the ways in which he relates his experience to the person he has been and to the person he has become. We have spent much less time talking about the extent to which the Lucas we meet in 7.1 has been brought into being by the actions and reactions of others. How much of Lucas is his own expression of intent; and how much is the result of his responses and reactions to the intent of others?

When we look into the eyes of another person, we are seeing them seeing us – we are seeing an expression of that person’s assessment and contextualisation of us. Lucas has spent eight years as a reflection of expressions of manipulation, aggression, dismissal, disgust, condescension and pity. I wonder whether he pursues a relationship with Sarah not because he wants or needs to be loved, but because he needs to have someone look at him as though he is capable of being loved. The expression on his face in 8.4 when he sees Sarah seeing him at the water tower – when he sees her seeing him as a victim and an object of horror and pity – is a devastating mixture of self-disgust, disappointment, apology and resignation. He knows Sarah can never now look at him again as anything other than what he has been to Oleg. This is, I know, a return to what I have written before about the difference between Lucas wanting something and wanting to want something, but I do think this is an important distinction to make in respect of this character in the context of his recent experience.

(14-01-2011 10:48 PM)Byatil Wrote:  It seems that Lucas holds more value in a physical relationship than anything else; his relationships with Sarah and Maya were rather superficial. This would make sense in terms of his time in Russia, where the only physical contact he would have had would supposedly have been the unpleasant kind.

Similarly, it is, I think, important to consider Lucas’ pursuit of physical relationships in terms not only of what he did experience in prison, but also in terms of what he did not experience. If we take the rather simplistic view that a person in a state of being in time is analogous to a vessel, we must consider more than what is in the vessel: we need also to consider what has been removed from the vessel, and what has never been in the vessel. Knowledge of all these conditions and values (presence, removal and absence) constitute facets of the experience of being this specific vessel. Certainly, Lucas’ experience of physical contact of one kind (torture) while in prison is vital to an appreciation of his character, but so is his correlated lack of physical contact of another kind (sex). Spooks was criticised in some quarters for a perceived failure to engage with the question of the consequences for Lucas of having been denied a sexual relationship (though not necessarily sexual activity) for eight years. His willingness to throw himself into “rather superficial” physical relationships is, it seems to me, evidence that the production has given this question at least some thought.

(14-01-2011 10:48 PM)Byatil Wrote:  So then why is he so keen to brush Ros off whenever she attempts to talk to him?

I’m not sure that Lucas is giving Ros the brush-off, in the sense that I see no significance in the fact that it is Ros in particular whom he is shutting out. He would have the same response to any other person on The Grid asking him about Oleg, or making comments about Sarah. Part of what is so interesting about the relationship between Lucas and Ros is their mutual disinterest in emotional exchange. This is not to suggest that either character is dispassionate or incapable of making emotional connections. Rather, they are content to have found in one another someone who, in the sustenance of their relationship, makes no demands in these terms. It is, paradoxically, this shared acceptance of emotional distance which makes their relationship so immediately companionable and so emotionally satisfying. Ros has genuine concern for Lucas’ wellbeing because she knows what it is like to be tortured and to feel like a traitor for wanting it to stop. When she asks him, in 7.8, if he is alright, she does so because she recognises the immense implications for him of realising (accepting) that he has been wrong in the certainty which has allowed him to retain focus in the face of something which might otherwise easily have overwhelmed him. When she watches him, in 8.4, walking across the marshes to meet Oleg, she unconsciously gentles the binoculars as she consciously withdraws what she understands to be an intrusive gaze from a scene of which she has no business being part. She wants to make this right, she wants to be sure of Lucas’ resilience, but she recognises that he is alone as he approaches the tower because he needs to be. Ros is inside Lucas’ head to a far greater extent than almost anyone else on The Grid. Crucially, though, she has the good grace not to press the issue.

(14-01-2011 10:48 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Apologies to drag S9 back into the discussion, but it seems to me that Vaughn represents one of Lucas' major weaknesses; he knows something that Lucas doesn't want other people to know. He has suddenly completely lost control of that part of his life, when he has been so careful to never reveal more than he needs to.

Ha ha! There is something undeniably curious about a show its own audience feels the need to apologise for, while at the same time remaining so committed to (most of) its content. It would be so liberating to be able to analyse the contributions of knowing and the control of what is known in relation to Lucas-is-John. But... [insert own reiteration of narrative dysfunction]. Perhaps season 10 will throw us a structural bone as far as this goes. And perhaps it won’t. My (non-existent) money is on the latter.

(14-01-2011 10:48 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Lucas seems to place more trust in women than he does men...

This is a really provocative insight with enormous potential for further consideration. What prompted your initial observation? Do you have a theory to explain the gender element in Lucas’ complex concerns about trust?

Wonderful analysis of the relationship between Ros and Lucas, thanks binkie.

Great job indeed Binkie! Great analysis of the beautiful bond between Ros and Lucas!

Sometimes I like to think that maybe if Ros had still be around, she would have stopped this crazy non-sense with Lucas before it got out of control. She really had this understanding of Lucas's mind and how it works more than anyone on the Grid, even more than Harry, surely she would have seen something and been able to possibly avert this incoming train wreck!

Honestly, Harry seems to suffer this emotional detachment from his team that I wonder if he can even be a good leader anymore. He is not in tune with the emotional status of his team, I mean, he didn't notice Jo's predicament until Lucas told him, he never seems to really grasp Lucas's mental state, and he has this attitude of just expecting his people to pick it up and move along like they should be acting like robots rather than human just because he himself can. Maybe if he had been more in tune with his team's emotional state, then he could have recognized the signs of failing mental health in Lucas, but it just seems like Harry is deliberately trying to keep himself apart from his team.

I think that to be a good leader in Harry's position he would have to distance himself somewhat from his team, but I believe he has gone too far (except were Ruth is concerned, but that is a different thread). But that is why having Lucas as his section chief would have been great of section D, Lucas was so in touch with other peoples' feelings and would be there for them when needed. Harry would only then need to deal with operational matters within the team. Unfortunately Lucas also needed someone to help him through his tough times but there was no one, especially after Ros had gone.

(18-01-2011 02:43 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I think that to be a good leader in Harry's position he would have to distance himself somewhat from his team, but I believe he has gone too far (except were Ruth is concerned, but that is a different thread). But that is why having Lucas as his section chief would have been great of section D, Lucas was so in touch with other peoples' feelings and would be there for them when needed. Harry would only then need to deal with operational matters within the team. Unfortunately Lucas also needed someone to help him through his tough times but there was no one, especially after Ros had gone.

To distance yourself from your team is not necessarily a bad thing, but the distance that Harry has built between himself and his team is like a huge chasm that somehow no one could cross or reach.

There is no doubt that Harry is a good leader who commands loyalty and respect from his people, but the mark of a good leader is also someone who is in tune with the emotional feelings of his team. If a leader is blind to how his team may be an emotional mess, how can he be a good leader?

That is my issue with Harry. He seems either just ignorant or willfully turning a blind eye to his team's emotional well-being as if everyone can just deal with all the trauma simply because they are MI5 agents.

He once said to Adam that he's responsible for Lucas's physical and mental wellbeing, I can't say I saw much of that. Sure he worried about Lucas during the whole thing with Oleg Dasharvain, but it was Ros who kept more of an eye on Lucas than anyone else. She seemed to be the only one who seemed to understand what Lucas needed.

Losing Ros was probably a huge blow to Lucas, and I can't help but wonder if that push him further into losing his mind in Series 9. Because in my view, if Ros had been around, maybe Series 9 would have ended differently, Ros had that unique ability of reading Lucas and calming him down that Harry never seemed to grasp.

(18-01-2011 04:29 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Losing Ros was probably a huge blow to Lucas, and I can't help but wonder if that push him further into losing his mind in Series 9. Because in my view, if Ros had been around, maybe Series 9 would have ended differently, Ros had that unique ability of reading Lucas and calming him down that Harry never seemed to grasp.

What do you suppose Ros might have done, though, in the context of the Lucas-is-John storyline? It's hard to imagine that she would have been as indulgent of John's actions in Dakar as she was of Malcolm's insider trading. We cannot suppose that she would have played a part in getting Albany to the Chinese so Lucas-is-John could flee the country with braindead Maya. Even if her presence had had sufficient influence somehow to avert the whole Albany / Vaughan spiral of doom, the script would still have insisted that Lucas is, well, John. I'm not convinced Ros would be okay with this. She took the hard decision when it came to Jack Colville, and she would almost certainly have done the same in the case of Lucas-is-John. I don't see how, in terms of the storyline, the presence of Ros would have changed the outcome (although it may have changed the means by which the outcome was reached). I'm entirely willing to be convinced otherwise

(18-01-2011 11:43 PM)binkie Wrote:  What do you suppose Ros might have done, though, in the context of the Lucas-is-John storyline? It's hard to imagine that she would have been as indulgent of John's actions in Dakar as she was of Malcolm's insider trading. We cannot suppose that she would have played a part in getting Albany to the Chinese so Lucas-is-John could flee the country with braindead Maya. Even if her presence had had sufficient influence somehow to avert the whole Albany / Vaughan spiral of doom, the script would still have insisted that Lucas is, well, John. I'm not convinced Ros would be okay with this. She took the hard decision when it came to Jack Colville, and she would almost certainly have done the same in the case of Lucas-is-John. I don't see how, in terms of the storyline, the presence of Ros would have changed the outcome (although it may have changed the means by which the outcome was reached). I'm entirely willing to be convinced otherwise

I don't mean that Ros would have allowed Lucas to run off or escape any less than Harry would have allowed. What I meant is that Ros seems to always have a good knack at figuring out how to read Lucas, or at least seems to know what he's doing. Of course I don't know this for sure, but I like to think that maybe she would have discovered this whole Vaughn thing before it started to spin out of control and took care of the problem before it became this huge train wreck.

I'm sure she would not have been thrilled to find out what Lucas/John did all those years ago or the fact that he had been lying, but considering her own little betrayal scenario, I hardly think Ros would be in any position to be that judgmental. She wouldn't be happy, but maybe she would have found out about Lucas's little activity and put a stop to it or helped Lucas get rid of Vaughn or find out why he wants Albany rather than this whole Lucas going crazy and kidnapping Ruth and running around like a mad-man.

Now I don't know if Lucas would have been alive either way, but at least I wouldn't have to sit through Lucas going loco and this whole Maya love-sick thing. Ros was the first to notice the whole Sarah/Lucas love thing, surely she would have spotted this whole Maya deal. With Ruth being suspicious and Harry going through a version of a mid-life crisis, Ros would be the only one I would think would act on her instincts/suspicions and confronted Lucas about this straight on.

And yes people sure wouldn't be thrilled that Lucas did that bombing thing or the whole fake identity, but he still risked his life for Queen and Country, so maybe if they had found out about Lucas's little rogue activity stuff earlier and before all this mess of running away, dead CIA analyst, and the whole Albany crap, things may have turned out a bit different.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but I just always have this part of me that thinks if Ros had been around, Lucas wouldn't have been allowed to get this far with the whole Vaughn thing. No one else really noticed what mess Lucas was making, and Ruth only barely started to have suspicions way too late. I can't help but think Ros would have caught on faster, she had that ability to read Lucas.

Anyways, that's just my crazy ramblings. Feel free to ignore

(19-01-2011 02:51 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  With Ruth being suspicious and Harry going through a version of a mid-life crisis, Ros would be the only one I would think would act on her instincts/suspicions and confronted Lucas about this straight on.

This would have been a really interesting development, and could have taken the season in a less meolodramatic, less maddening, direction. It would also have allowed Ros plenty of material in testing her mantra of "never make a decision you can't live with". I must say, the sneakiness of Ruth's behaviour in respect of Lucas bothered me, partly because it seemed so out of character for her (but this should hardly have been a surprise in the season of character?-what-character?). A confrontation with Ros would also have saved us from what seemed to me to be somewhat un-earned sanctimony on the part of Harry in the Lucas-is-John revelation scenes.

Nicely done, BravoNine

Ros would have found out about Vaughn and Maya I'm sure a lot faster than anyone else but once it was revealed that Lucas was John, who had lied for 15 years and blew up a British Embassy, it was always going to end badly. The crime that John did was so bad, killing innocent people (some of whom were British) for no reason, there could be no redemption. I'm starting to sound like I actually believe in series 9........*runs away screaming*

(19-01-2011 10:41 AM)binkie Wrote:  A confrontation with Ros would also have saved us from what seemed to me to be somewhat un-earned sanctimony on the part of Harry in the Lucas-is-John revelation scenes.

Yes Harry did seem to take the moral high-ground. If we are to believe that Lucas had been lying for 15 years why did he tell Harry everything in 9.7. Okay, so John was in Dakar with Lucas, why didn't he just say they had an argument, Lucas got killed in a fight and John fled the country with his passport. Harry didn't know that Lucas and Vaughn were 'partners' other than presumably Beth identifying Vaughn in the playground, and he hadn't connected them to the bombing, so why tell Harry so much?

(19-01-2011 02:35 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Ros would have found out about Vaughn and Maya I'm sure a lot faster than anyone else but once it was revealed that Lucas was John, who had lied for 15 years and blew up a British Embassy, it was always going to end badly. The crime that John did was so bad, killing innocent people (some of whom were British) for no reason, there could be no redemption. I'm starting to sound like I actually believe in series 9........*runs away screaming*

NOOOOOOOOOO That must never happen!!!!! *shoves HellsBells away from Series 9*

YOU MUST NOT FALL TO THE DARK SIDE!!!!

But to be honest, even then there is always a way out. Yes he bombed the embassy, yes he faked his identity, but he could have told them that he was manipulated by Vaughn, that he was a stupid young man who didn't know what was really happening, and that Vaughn killed the real Lucas, and Lucas/John took on his identity to redeem himself and joined MI5.

I mean, who would know if what he said wasn't the truth? And who would they believe more? Vaughn or Lucas? If they had avoided the whole Vaughn/Lucas confrontation, maybe then Lucas wouldn't have gone on the run, maybe if they had just kept a little more control on Lucas, this whole Albany crazy thing would have been stopped, Maya would be alive and Lucas wouldn't have gone loco at the end.

Would he be punished for what happened 15 years ago in Dakar? Probably, but his years of service and the fact that 8 years in Russia and he still never told them a thing should mean something. And if Ros could return to be Section Chief after her little betrayal act with Yalta, then why should the actions of a manipulated young man from 15 years ago who has now become a good loyal agent be so severely punished?

Maybe if all this craziness hadn't happened, they could have worked out some plea bargain or some other deal. If Lucas was the one being manipulated by Vaughn in Dakar, then it would be Vaughn who would be ultimately held responsible, Lucas could have gotten off with a lighter sentence if he stuck to his story that he didn't know what was in the briefcase.

I still fully believe that if things had been stopped sooner, Lucas could have survived, but since everyone seemed to have their mid-life crisis in Series 9, Lucas's activities went ignored and it snow-balled into this whole mess!

(19-01-2011 02:35 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  

(19-01-2011 10:41 AM)binkie Wrote:  A confrontation with Ros would also have saved us from what seemed to me to be somewhat un-earned sanctimony on the part of Harry in the Lucas-is-John revelation scenes.

Yes Harry did seem to take the moral high-ground. If we are to believe that Lucas had been lying for 15 years why did he tell Harry everything in 9.7. Okay, so John was in Dakar with Lucas, why didn't he just say they had an argument, Lucas got killed in a fight and John fled the country with his passport. Harry didn't know that Lucas and Vaughn were 'partners' other than presumably Beth identifying Vaughn in the playground, and he hadn't connected them to the bombing, so why tell Harry so much?

This is why Series 9 never made any sense and keeps on contradicting itself.

So Lucas tells Harry what happened in Dakar about the bombs and how Vaughn manipulated him, so why did then on the roof Harry asks Lucas, "if you knew what you were doing, then why didn't you stop?"

I mean, what does Harry mean Lucas knew? That he knew about the bomb? And how did Harry knew Lucas knew about the bomb if no one else is alive who can verify that since Lucas never told Harry?

And better yet, Lucas told Ruth that he was so careful, then why the hell did Lucas even slip to Harry that he was in Dakar in the first place? I mean, it was Harry's suspicion of why they never knew Lucas was in Dakar that put Beth on the trail of finding out what Lucas was doing and discovering the real Lucas North! It was stupid!

I would think that Lucas at least had some semblance of intelligence to not let something that important just slip his mind!