(20-01-2011 12:19 AM)Saerwen Wrote:  I'm afraid I am not as good as expressing myself as others have so eloquently with their marvellous posts but here goes.

I think Lucas had a subconsious grudge against Harry. He wanted Harry to have the same experience as him, feel what he felt and Albany fulfilled that need.

On the contrary, this is very eloquently expressed and I agree completely

I think the entire "Ruth kidnapping" aspect of the story made sense - as you say, Lucas probably wanted Harry to feel the same pain he felt when he was torn away from Elizabeta.

As for multiple-personalities, as has been said... I think it could have made sense if they'd explained it properly. The amount of emotional trauma Lucas has suffered by the start of S9 warrants some form of emotional break-down, and as you say, it only takes one suitcase to push him over the edge.
The problem with this plot is that John isn't simply a 'different personality' - he's a real person. Lucas isn't a 'personality' either, he was a real person. We have no grounds on which to compare the "real" Lucas North with John's depiction of him, so we can't really determine whether Lucas was a completely new persona for John, or simply a convenient new identity.

If Lucas had had an emotional breakdown and gone a bit crazy, I think we could have accepted that as a viable character development. As it stands, it simply doesn't seem at all realistic and is in fact totally out of character.

I almost think Lucas' character was "too perfect", so the writers felt they had to come up with a truly colossal flaw for him.

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Interesting thought - Lucas inadvertently causes Adam's death in 8.1 when he renders 'Tranquillity' unconscious. Significant?

(20-01-2011 10:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Interesting thought - Lucas inadvertently causes Adam's death in 8.1 when he renders 'Tranquillity' unconscious. Significant?

I totally agree that the whole Lucas isn't Lucas but John-thing doesn't make sense, because they are two different people.
As I see John, he would never gave up 8 years of his life for Queen and country.
As said, if it was a sort of mental breakdown or a multiple personality disorder Lucas got in order to survive in prison, I could accept it, but not like this!

Going of topic with this : On the death of Adam: I always thought it was Ros who inadvertently caused that, because, when they saw eachother after being apart for an amount of months, they both hesitaded for a minute or so, before Adam got in the car (if I remember correctly, Ros called out to Adam) and that small amount of time could have been enough for Adam to get the bombed car to that deserted field AND get out in time.
I think that Ros felt the same way, that she thought that she was somehow, partly, responsable for Adams death, but that's just what I made of it.

(20-01-2011 10:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Interesting thought - Lucas inadvertently causes Adam's death in 8.1 when he renders 'Tranquillity' unconscious. Significant?

Tranquillity bit down on a cyanide pill concealed in her mouth and died before Lucas could remove the pill, at least that is how I thought it happened. I agree with Belle, if Ros and Adam hadn't wasted time staring at each other he might have made it.

(20-01-2011 10:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(20-01-2011 12:19 AM)Saerwen Wrote:  I'm afraid I am not as good as expressing myself as others have so eloquently with their marvellous posts but here goes.

I think Lucas had a subconsious grudge against Harry. He wanted Harry to have the same experience as him, feel what he felt and Albany fulfilled that need.

On the contrary, this is very eloquently expressed and I agree completely

This was definitely how it felt in 9.8, that Lucas did indeed want to hurt Harry, emotionally rather than physically. Initially Lucas had been suspicious of Harry, wondering why he had not got him back from Russia sooner, but Lucas had always appeared to want Harry's approval, which Harry never fully gave. Maybe because Lucas finally realised that Harry would never give Lucas the approval he seeked (considering the revelations of series 9), Lucas wanted to punish Harry.
(Sorry I think I maybe rambling)

(20-01-2011 10:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Interesting thought - Lucas inadvertently causes Adam's death in 8.1 when he renders 'Tranquillity' unconscious. Significant?

I never thought Lucas is responsible. He was ordered to take down Tranquility and get the codes from her. She was prepared to die in case someone went after her for the codes, so she bit on the cyanide pill as she and Lucas were fighting, hence you see Lucas trying to get the pill out of her mouth.

So no, Lucas didn't inadvertently cause Adam's death.

(21-01-2011 12:12 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  

(20-01-2011 12:19 AM)Saerwen Wrote:  I think Lucas had a subconsious grudge against Harry. He wanted Harry to have the same experience as him, feel what he felt and Albany fulfilled that need.

This was definitely how it felt in 9.8, that Lucas did indeed want to hurt Harry, emotionally rather than physically. Initially Lucas had been suspicious of Harry, wondering why he had not got him back from Russia sooner, but Lucas had always appeared to want Harry's approval, which Harry never fully gave. Maybe because Lucas finally realised that Harry would never give Lucas the approval he seeked (considering the revelations of series 9), Lucas wanted to punish Harry.
(Sorry I think I maybe rambling)

You're not rambling at all, HB. That's exactly what I thought Lucas was trying to do to Harry in 9.8.

(21-01-2011 03:23 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(20-01-2011 10:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Interesting thought - Lucas inadvertently causes Adam's death in 8.1 when he renders 'Tranquillity' unconscious. Significant?

I never thought Lucas is responsible. He was ordered to take down Tranquility and get the codes from her. She was prepared to die in case someone went after her for the codes, so she bit on the cyanide pill as she and Lucas were fighting, hence you see Lucas trying to get the pill out of her mouth.

So no, Lucas didn't inadvertently cause Adam's death.

Fair enough! I never realised it was a cyanide pill /unobservant

(24-01-2011 10:55 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(24-01-2011 10:11 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I know that perfume is synthesised but used to be made using the anal glands of civets (not cats!)

I still don't even understand why the hell would Lucas even know that? Did he just go memorize a trivia book?

I thought that was funny when I first heard it, it was just so odd that he started to correct Ros. LOL!

Just replying to this here because I din't want to go off-topic in the other thread.

He jokingly said he was a polymath when Ros asked him how he knew, but I'm assuming 8 years in Russia gave him a lot of time to read up on things such as the production of perfume

(24-01-2011 11:02 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I'm assuming 8 years in Russia gave him a lot of time to read up on things such as the production of perfume

Is that what they do in Russian prisons these days? Torture and reading up on perfume production?

(24-01-2011 11:06 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(24-01-2011 11:02 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I'm assuming 8 years in Russia gave him a lot of time to read up on things such as the production of perfume

Is that what they do in Russian prisons these days? Torture and reading up on perfume production?

Who knows?!

"These Russian prisons, they're like holiday camps. They have mattresses and everything."

(24-01-2011 11:09 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Who knows?!

"These Russian prisons, they're like holiday camps. They have mattresses and everything."

And apparently they have perfume production books too!