(23-01-2011 10:25 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  In fact the only extra that could make me buy the S9 DVDs would be "Explanation of plotholes".

This would require it's own 3-DVD set. I wonder if they (Kudos writers) will read any of this?
Great thread! Loving it.
(Or should I say "Still tearing my hair out trying to make sense of it.")

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(25-01-2011 01:18 AM)Byatil Wrote:  I seriously hope they don't try and tell us the whole Lucas-is-John plot was intentional I will forever lose my faith in the writers if they do. It's just absurd to think that the S7 writers would have taken Lucas' character in such a direction, but I digress.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I rather think that's EXACTLY what they're going to do. I'm sure they're aware that the ridiculous Lucas=John storyline has raised the ire of Spooks fans.

Some more thoughts about Plot-holes:

Where was Vaughan in those intervening years? And how can he suddenly intercept Lucas on his way home (?), i.e. why was Lucas's own "security" (about his movements) so lax?
What happened to Lucas's interest in Blake? (okay, I know the tattoo was still there, but all the other things were missing).
What was Harry's past history with Lucas (alluded to so many times and never followed up)?

In regards to Lucas not having any possessions when Beth and Dimitri search his house, (but clearly having stuff in series 7 and 8), could Lucas/John have packed them up and stored them somewhere else to prevent MI5 getting hold of them?
Why did why never find out what else was in that suitcase? There was a videotape, wonder what that had on it. And what did Lucas do with the suitcase?

(25-01-2011 09:29 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  Where was Vaughan in those intervening years? And how can he suddenly intercept Lucas on his way home (?), i.e. why was Lucas's own "security" (about his movements) so lax?

Good point, how did Vaughn have so much information on Lucas if he hadn't seen him in 15 years, were the Chinese helping him finding information on Lucas, eg home address, mobile number, route walked home? But this would suggest that the Chinese had access to MI5 database.

How could Lucas = John get that job in a casino? Those jobs are not given away just like that, you need special training. And at least in Bavaria you would need a police certificate stating that you had no criminal record. Wasn't JB involved in drug dealing? How amazing he managed to get such a sensitive job! And apparently he was fluid in French, too, as this is the official language in Dakar.
So it seems John=Lucas and Lucas=Lucas not only looked fairly alike and were the same age, they also both had a training as croupiers before going to Dakar, both spoke French, both were fluid in Russian, had the same education and degrees (if JB were to pose as Lucas he needed the same qualifications) and neither of them had any family or friends. Now that's what I call a coincidence!

(26-01-2011 12:25 AM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  How could Lucas = John get that job in a casino? Those jobs are not given away just like that, you need special training. And at least in Bavaria you would need a police certificate stating that you had no criminal record. Wasn't JB involved in drug dealing? How amazing he managed to get such a sensitive job! And apparently he was fluid in French, too, as this is the official language in Dakar.
So it seems John=Lucas and Lucas=Lucas not only looked fairly alike and were the same age, they also both had a training as croupiers before going to Dakar, both spoke French, both were fluid in Russian, had the same education and degrees (if JB were to pose as Lucas he needed the same qualifications) and neither of them had any family or friends. Now that's what I call a coincidence!

MI5 also give qualification training tests too before they bring in an applicant, so how did John/Lucas copy or match the scores of Real-Lucas so perfectly? IMPOSSIBLE!

(26-01-2011 12:30 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(26-01-2011 12:25 AM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  How could Lucas = John get that job in a casino? Those jobs are not given away just like that, you need special training. And at least in Bavaria you would need a police certificate stating that you had no criminal record. Wasn't JB involved in drug dealing? How amazing he managed to get such a sensitive job! And apparently he was fluid in French, too, as this is the official language in Dakar.
So it seems John=Lucas and Lucas=Lucas not only looked fairly alike and were the same age, they also both had a training as croupiers before going to Dakar, both spoke French, both were fluid in Russian, had the same education and degrees (if JB were to pose as Lucas he needed the same qualifications) and neither of them had any family or friends. Now that's what I call a coincidence!

MI5 also give qualification training tests too before they bring in an applicant, so how did John/Lucas copy or match the scores of Real-Lucas so perfectly? IMPOSSIBLE!

The more you think about it the more ridiculous it gets. That's why I have decided not to take that story serious anymore. Lucas is just Lucas and no-one else. He might have had a nightmare, but that's all!

(26-01-2011 12:36 AM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  

(26-01-2011 12:30 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(26-01-2011 12:25 AM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  How could Lucas = John get that job in a casino? Those jobs are not given away just like that, you need special training. And at least in Bavaria you would need a police certificate stating that you had no criminal record. Wasn't JB involved in drug dealing? How amazing he managed to get such a sensitive job! And apparently he was fluid in French, too, as this is the official language in Dakar.
So it seems John=Lucas and Lucas=Lucas not only looked fairly alike and were the same age, they also both had a training as croupiers before going to Dakar, both spoke French, both were fluid in Russian, had the same education and degrees (if JB were to pose as Lucas he needed the same qualifications) and neither of them had any family or friends. Now that's what I call a coincidence!

MI5 also give qualification training tests too before they bring in an applicant, so how did John/Lucas copy or match the scores of Real-Lucas so perfectly? IMPOSSIBLE!

The more you think about it the more ridiculous it gets. That's why I have decided not to take that story serious anymore. Lucas is just Lucas and no-one else. He might have had a nightmare, but that's all!

As a fan for a spy drama series, suspension of disbelief is something that one exercises a lot, I mean there are many moments on Spooks that you just have to kinda go with it even if it's not very realistic, but I think the writers are taking that loyalty of the audience for granted this time and pushed too far.

This whole storyline hinges on all these coincidences align together so perfectly at the right time, it just doesn't work. There are far too many technical aspects of the storyline that are never explained or just quickly glossed over, and when it all piles up, it ruins the atmosphere of the story. Especially for one like Lucas's downfall, when it all hinges on coincidences and getting the audience to believe in them, the writers took that risk and it just didn't pay off for them.

I mean, I can take a lot watching Spooks, I don't nitpick everything or else I would have stopped watching once Series 8 became just Lucas and Ros saving the world which is completely unrealistic, but the stories were good, well-written, and it made sense, so just ignoring the tiny factor of just two people saving the world is not a big problem at all.

But when your whole entire storyline is about the sudden dramatic change of a character to someone who the fans never thought he would be, all these coincidences and oh-so-perfect moments just doesn't stand up to scrutiny and when that basic foundation is crumbling and weak, the whole story just falls flat.

And this is what has happened to Series 9, the writers pushed the suspension of disbelief too far. They took it for granted, thinking that the audience is just gonna go with it, that they can get away without having to explain everything clearly, but they were wrong. When you tell an emotional life-changing story like this, you have to have solid foundations and backstories, what the writers gave were feeble excuses.

As a writer myself, I understand writing TV is difficult and there are time restraints, but that's no excuse to pull together a storyline with a weak foundation. It makes me feel shameful for the writers.

(26-01-2011 12:25 AM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  How could Lucas = John get that job in a casino? Those jobs are not given away just like that, you need special training. And at least in Bavaria you would need a police certificate stating that you had no criminal record. Wasn't JB involved in drug dealing? How amazing he managed to get such a sensitive job! And apparently he was fluid in French, too, as this is the official language in Dakar.
So it seems John=Lucas and Lucas=Lucas not only looked fairly alike and were the same age, they also both had a training as croupiers before going to Dakar, both spoke French, both were fluid in Russian, had the same education and degrees (if JB were to pose as Lucas he needed the same qualifications) and neither of them had any family or friends. Now that's what I call a coincidence!

Aha, oh dear! That really does blow the entire Dakar situation out of the water.

Once again, playing the devil's advocate: is it possible that the Casino would have been a popular tourist attraction therefore not requiring Lucas-is-John to have more than a basic understanding of French?

Is it also possible that Lucas-is-John only became fluent in Russian after he joined MI5?

I don't think there's any way to explain how he got a job in the casino, unless they had very different standards back then. Which raises a fair point - surely Lucas-is-John would have acquired a criminal record, which is something MI5 should have picked up on?

We never seemed to get to the bottom of who was behind the Dakar bombing.
What was Maya's relationship with Michael/Vaughan?
As we don't know entirely what Happened to Lucas in Russia apart from flash backs, I would like to think he was thoroughly subjected to mind control and hypnotism for the 8 years and that would account for the alter ego, as he must have been desperate as trying to kill himself shows he would have been really vulnerable and without hope.
For me the writers cannot cohesively associate Series 9 with Series 7 & 8, I know I am more intelligent than they would like to think I am. For sure no wool pulled over my eyes!

(25-01-2011 02:00 AM)Byatil Wrote:  Completely playing the role of the devils advocate here

Well, hello Devil’s Advocate Shall we dance?

(25-01-2011 02:00 AM)Byatil Wrote:  There's always the possibility that Lucas-is-John was simply too scared to do anything to Vaughn. We're supposed to believe him to be the naive University student who has become caught-up in a drug-trafficking scheme, so it doesn't seem implausible that he wouldn't be the most confident of people at age 19/20.

I’m not convinced confidence has very much to do with anything here. Admittedly, I have never killed anyone for a passport (or, I should add, for any other reason!), but – once Vaughan clarified the sequence of events – it seems pretty clear in narrative terms that Lucas-is-John did not kill anyone (least of all Lucas-really-Lucas) either by accident or in a panic. This was an intentional, considered, planned action. It was almost certainly formulated outside the room, and some time before the action took place. I’m not suggesting it was easily done - there is obviously some incredulity in Lucas-is-John’s response to the completion of the murder, but one could argue that this is an extension of self-pity, rather than regret or moral clarity. The man who kills Lucas-really-Lucas means to escape responsibility for his actions, and - logically, in the context of what the script wants us suddenly to know and accept about Lucas-is-John – this should extend to the destruction of anyone or anything which might speak to that responsibility.

(25-01-2011 02:00 AM)Byatil Wrote:  As we've seen with Lucas' character (not sure if it really 'counts' in the context of S9, but onwards nevertheless) he's obsessed with the idea of controlling his surroundings. Vaughn represents a threat, as you say, in that he cannot be controlled. But as we've seen with Dasharvin in 8.4, Lucas is extremely scared when he loses control of a situation. Could it be said that the same thing happened in regards to his relationship with Vaughn? Lucas realised he had no control over Vaughn and panicked, fleeing Dakar and presumably hoping to bury his head in the sand over the whole ordeal. It could even be argued that he learnt from this experience, and that it was in fact the reason as to why Lucas has such a compulsion to control (once again completely disregarding the fact that it was apparently Russia that affected his personality in S7+8).

I agree with your concluding observation here: Lucas’ compulsion to control is a consequence of institutional conditioning. This was so clearly, coherently and comprehensively detailed in the sense and texture of seasons 7/8, no part of the retcon of season 9 can undo it. Much like the attempt to reinvent the reason for Lucas to divest himself of personal possessions, the projection onto this trait of other reasoning is facile, misguided and rhetorically impotent.

I am having some difficulty in accommodating a comparison of the function and characteristic of the relationships between Lucas and Oleg, and between Lucas-is-John and Vaughan. I realise, of course, that you are in no way suggesting that the dynamic is the same in each case. However, I do think there is a danger in invoking the example of Lucas’ response to any aspect of his relationship with Oleg in the context of his response to any aspect – no matter how superficially similar – of his relationship with someone (anyone) else. This is not the thread for a discussion of the Lucas/Oleg relationship, I know, but I think we should not under-estimate the extent to which this is a relationship which exists almost in a vacuum: it is a still-evolving, still-experienced facet of becoming and being for both Lucas and Oleg, and only for them. I think perhaps an assessment of the relationship context motivated by Vaughan should take that relationship on its own terms (insofar as this is remotely possible with the paucity and inconsistency of the information available).

(25-01-2011 01:18 AM)Byatil Wrote:  

(25-01-2011 12:27 AM)binkie Wrote:  2 – Does Lucas-is-John really believe that “I was so careful” extends to online and telephone research into the whereabouts of the mother of a former MI5 officer using government secure equipment in a government office?

I think in order to make this believable we're expected to think that MI5 have extremely lax security standards... there really is no logical explanation for the way Lucas-is-John managed to land a job with MI5, or as to how he managed to completely cover-up the murder of Lucas-really-Lucas.

Yes, something like this really highlights the extent to which problems with, and arising from, the writing in season 9 carry implications far beyond the character of Lucas. It is, it seems to me, somewhat disingenuous to insist that – unless you are some kind of blinkered, immature ‘Lucas-fan’ – season 9 was a triumph. In dramatic terms, there is a substantial difference between leading an audience to a particular conclusion based on the content of a script or performance, and leaving the audience with no choice other than to draw a particular conclusion based on the total lack of any evidence to the contrary.

In the context of season 9, with its conceit that Lucas-is-John-and-has-got-away-with-it-for-15-years, successful execution of Lucas’ line: “I was so careful” has to mean Lucas was careful and that MI5 thwarted him anyway because it is just that awesome. We have to see him being careful, and we have to understand his behaviour as careful. Not only that, but we have to see in that behaviour a clear and incontrovertible indication of how this behaviour has sustained a 15-year deception. What we see instead is someone who cannot tell a competent lie about public transport, who seemingly can be bothered to clean his fingerprints only from one half of the equipment he uses to access the restricted not-quite-Albany file, and who conducts personal research of dubious note using government secure information channels.

The failure of the script to illustrate its own explicit content does more than give us idiot-Lucas. It also fundamentally alters the way in which we have to conclude the Spooks-universe works. We have spent nine seasons investing in, engaging with, and familiarising ourselves with the operation of this universe. We are drawn into a dramatic environment in which highly committed, necessarily anonymous, men and women are brave, resourceful and selfless against a background of creatively sourced, intelligently interpreted, well-communicated information. Season 9 leaves us to conclude that, actually, MI5 is staffed by sleepwalkers and that intelligence is just a. n. other noun. It wasn’t only the character of Lucas that was undermined by season 9, it was the believability of the sustaining environment of the Spooky-verse. That’s a pretty big plot hole, I'm afraid

Binkie

I'm not sure how to do quotes so I will just say instead what a brilliant post and analysis I really enjoyed reading it and you so hit the nail on the head.