^ I thought that series seven was quite Le Carre actually. I think they've even mentioned Le Carre in one of the series of Spooks outright.

(08-03-2011 06:20 AM)Silktie Wrote:  Also, Harry's 'the spy they want to kick back out into the cold.' Le Carre's The Spy Who Came In From the Cold plays out in Berlin, with the climax focussing on trying to cross the Berlin Wall.

Oooohhhh...very nice Silktie! I (shamefully) have never read and Le Carre but that title stuck in my head the moment the HS said that to Harry at the end of 9.8.

An interesting interview.

Were you concerned about how the audience would react to turning a lead character bad?

“Not half! We knew there was dedicated core of Lucas and/or Richard fans who would want our heads on sticks. But you have to balance that against the desire to deliver a big, unexpected, shocking story and do something really ambitious - like turning your alpha male hero into someone else entirely.

So basically they didn't care what Lucas fans thought of their storyline, they just wanted something big. If writers stop caring what parts of the audience think about the show, they may risk people not watching.

(08-03-2011 02:48 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  An interesting interview.

Were you concerned about how the audience would react to turning a lead character bad?

“Not half! We knew there was dedicated core of Lucas and/or Richard fans who would want our heads on sticks. But you have to balance that against the desire to deliver a big, unexpected, shocking story and do something really ambitious - like turning your alpha male hero into someone else entirely.

So basically they didn't care what Lucas fans thought of their storyline, they just wanted something big. If writers stop caring what parts of the audience think about the show, they may risk people not watching.

Yeah, that jumped out at me too. However, I interpreted it as them being very concerned about the probable response. But if I have read all the Lucas discussions correctly, (and I have read them all!) it is not so much "what" they did but "how" they did it? Which was messy. To say the least. (I could be misinterpreting the general sentiments.) I have no problem with the big, unexpected, shocking and ambitious story, but it just didn't pay off in the end. There was too much to tie up and once they did it was too little and too late. It felt to me like a good forward getting the ball, taking it all the way down the pitch to pass it off to the striker who's perfectly aimed shot that you are sure will go in only deflects off the goal post by a hairs breath. Such a let down!

(08-03-2011 02:48 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  An interesting interview.

Were you concerned about how the audience would react to turning a lead character bad?

“Not half! We knew there was dedicated core of Lucas and/or Richard fans who would want our heads on sticks. But you have to balance that against the desire to deliver a big, unexpected, shocking story and do something really ambitious - like turning your alpha male hero into someone else entirely.

So basically they didn't care what Lucas fans thought of their storyline, they just wanted something big. If writers stop caring what parts of the audience think about the show, they may risk people not watching.

I think that it must be difficult, if not impossible, to please every single one of your viewers, that is not the intend of a good series, too, I guess. I think that it's part of a 'good' serie to encourage the audience to think for themselves about characters and storylines.

That the new writers didn't care about what the Lucas/RA fans could think of their storyline, so be it, this decision says more about them (wanting to shock more than to deliver a 'decent' story) than about the fans.
But I don't think the fans would have mind 'the alpha-male-hero' turning to be not quite what we thought him to be, if only the storyline that led up to this change was plausible and not filled with holes, with so much inconsistencies towards character and believabilaty (see the thread 'plotholes'), and cardboard past lovers. They easily could have solved the problem of Lucas' shift in personality by including a flashback or something like that, but they didn't, they chose to use a flashback in which we saw him blowing up the embassy (using a way too modern phone in a country that didn't had a decent mobile network at that time, b.t.w.).
I can only hope that 'Spooks' will not fall into the trap of becoming just mindless entertainment, aiming to 'shock' and filled with fast-paced action and explosions, with no room left for intelligent stories and somewhat detailed character development; there has to be such television, too, but this series isn't the place where writers only have to take their ego's in consideration.

(08-03-2011 02:48 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  An interesting interview.

Were you concerned about how the audience would react to turning a lead character bad?

“Not half! We knew there was dedicated core of Lucas and/or Richard fans who would want our heads on sticks. But you have to balance that against the desire to deliver a big, unexpected, shocking story and do something really ambitious - like turning your alpha male hero into someone else entirely.

So basically they didn't care what Lucas fans thought of their storyline, they just wanted something big. If writers stop caring what parts of the audience think about the show, they may risk people not watching.

I find it aggravating, too, that they didn't address some of the criticism so many viewers had about the plot. Is it because they can't or they just can't be bothered to? If they wrote four of the first six episodes they should have laid the foundation for the revelations in 9x7 and 9x8. But they don't seem to recognize the need for that foundation.

My own sports metaphor is about a team of prima donas who've let past glory go their heads. Rather than practice they celebrate success prematurely and end up blowing the big game because of basic errors. Then they complain that the fans didn't support them.

(08-03-2011 06:09 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(08-03-2011 02:48 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  An interesting interview.

Were you concerned about how the audience would react to turning a lead character bad?

“Not half! We knew there was dedicated core of Lucas and/or Richard fans who would want our heads on sticks. But you have to balance that against the desire to deliver a big, unexpected, shocking story and do something really ambitious - like turning your alpha male hero into someone else entirely.

So basically they didn't care what Lucas fans thought of their storyline, they just wanted something big. If writers stop caring what parts of the audience think about the show, they may risk people not watching.

I find it aggravating, too, that they didn't address some of the criticism so many viewers had about the plot. Is it because they can't or they just can't be bothered to? If they wrote four of the first six episodes they should have laid the foundation for the revelations in 9x7 and 9x8. But they don't seem to recognize the need for that foundation.

My own sports metaphor is about a team of prima donas who've let past glory go their heads. Rather than practice they celebrate success prematurely and end up blowing the big game because of basic errors. Then they complain that the fans didn't support them.

I love both analogies but this one made me laugh (But dw I totally agree)

What I took from the writer's answer: We don't care about how a story works, we care about its initial shock value. I also found it ironic that the implication is that its only Lucas/RA fans who will find the storyline irritating. Lucas wasn't my favourite character and I still thought the story didn't work.

In reply to Hellsbells, I have been wondering about series ten and ratings for that very reason. I wonder if Lucas fans will watch series ten at all after 9.8? I wonder if it will affect the show much?

And Belle: I can only hope that 'Spooks' will not fall into the trap of becoming just mindless entertainment, aiming to 'shock' and filled with fast-paced action and explosions, with no room left for intelligent stories and somewhat detailed character development; there has to be such television, too, but this series isn't the place where writers only have to take their ego's in consideration. This is my biggest fear by far for series ten.

The thing is, I mostly agree with why they chose to do a different story for Lucas. Their motivation was pure, they didn't want to do another hero dying in a blaze of glory or under damning circumstances (like Zoe or Tom).

I just think that it didn't work with the character they chose. What they gave us is difficult to reconcile with the Lucas we had for 2 seasons prior to this turn around.

I think we have to remember that not all viewers have watched Spooks since the beginning and may just be casual first timers. Kudos has to increase 'market share' of the viewers. The Lucas storyline didn't make sense to us dedicated fans, but to someone watching for the first time or as a stand alone series, it must have seemed good, 'high octane hokum', to quote Peter Firth.

I just hope it hasn't backfired and lost them as many loyal fans as it gained them new ones!

(09-03-2011 05:29 AM)JHyde Wrote:  The thing is, I mostly agree with why they chose to do a different story for Lucas. Their motivation was pure, they didn't want to do another hero dying in a blaze of glory or under damning circumstances (like Zoe or Tom).

I just think that it didn't work with the character they chose. What they gave us is difficult to reconcile with the Lucas we had for 2 seasons prior to this turn around.

To qualify an earlier post, I do understand why they wanted to go down a new route. From what I gather, they wanted to keep things fresh by going someplace new. I think someone else said this above, it's not the fact that Lucas has a double identity that was the issue, it was how this double identity was presented to the viewers. If that makes sense?

I don't think many people would argue with the last statement of yours either. The reason that I personally find the Jucas storyline so annoying is because it undermines previous series now for me. It's like the sports analogies above... the set up of the goal wasn't there to get the ball in the hoop.

To the person above me that's a good point. I wonder what random viewers who had never seen previous series before think of Jucas? I mean if there was no previous canon, I guess there's no reason why that storyline wouldn't work as a concept (there would still be niggling plot holes but they wouldn't feel as big).