I just wish I could re-watch series 9 with all the 'Lucas is John' nonsense taken out. There were brilliant weekly story lines, and the evolution of Ruth's character was fascinating, but there was not enough build-up of Tariq, Beth and Dimitri's characters. And without a great cliffhanger, I must admit to finding it difficult to gain much excitement to watch series 10.

I feel the same Lomoto.

(25-03-2011 02:20 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I just wish I could re-watch series 9 with all the 'Lucas is John' nonsense taken out. There were brilliant weekly story lines, and the evolution of Ruth's character was fascinating, but there was not enough build-up of Tariq, Beth and Dimitri's characters. And without a great cliffhanger, I must admit to finding it difficult to gain much excitement to watch series 10.

You are so right, HellsBells. As I mentioned on another thread, there was enough in Lucas's known background (torture, imprisonment, "left to rot") to have him fall apart as Lucas, without having to resort to the stupid L-i-J-rubbish.

(25-03-2011 09:17 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  

(25-03-2011 02:20 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I just wish I could re-watch series 9 with all the 'Lucas is John' nonsense taken out. There were brilliant weekly story lines, and the evolution of Ruth's character was fascinating, but there was not enough build-up of Tariq, Beth and Dimitri's characters. And without a great cliffhanger, I must admit to finding it difficult to gain much excitement to watch series 10.

You are so right, HellsBells. As I mentioned on another thread, there was enough in Lucas's known background (torture, imprisonment, "left to rot") to have him fall apart as Lucas, without having to resort to the stupid L-i-J-rubbish.

Exactly! It would have been so much more interesting watching the breakdown of Lucas and seeing what being a spy can really cost a person, it would have given the story that much more power and meaning to watch a character we had cared about lose his last shreds of sanity and hope than to have this Lucas-is-John nonsense being paraded around as some amazing shocking story with a character John that we can honestly care less about and have no feelings for.

...and it could've made a fantastic statement about the effects of torture, PTD, long-term imprisonment etc on agents, troops etc.

(26-03-2011 09:33 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  ...and it could've made a fantastic statement about the effects of torture, PTD, long-term imprisonment etc on agents, troops etc.

You're right on the point!!

They could have made this story all the more emotional and powerful and instead they exchanged heart-felt storytelling with shock-and-awe tactics.

Spooks may be a show that is more about the action than the characters, but if the characters are just like robo-machines that go ping and have no emotional core, then that makes the rest of the stories fall flat. Especially in shows like this, it's the characters and their interactions that keeps a show together, that keeps a story running, and that may be something that Spooks has to learn to do better in the coming series because as much as I love action, if the characters are just happy little cardboard cut-outs, then I see no reason in watching the show.

Series 9 could have been a powerful series, it could have explored the connection of characters, what they have to risk for the sake of this job, and what happens when one finally snaps and loses touch with reality. Instead, it was just a story done for shock value that made no logical sense.

Without any fanfare or lead up publicity (that I saw anyway) S9 starts in Oz on ABC1 on Saturday at 8.30. Even though I've just watched the series on DVD ... yaaayyy!

It's advertised on ABC1 around 8:30PM at night, especially on the weekends.

I just finished watching S9 last night and I'm afraid I haven't read all the previous posts in this thread, although I've read some, as well as posts on the individual episodes threads. But I want to capture my thoughts before I get too distracted by other people's - apologies if I repeat what may have been said before.

Overall, I found this series grew on me and I was more gripped as it went on. I thought there were some great moments and some great individual episodes. However, I was disappointed by the Lucas storyline. Not so much by his unravelling, but by the reason for it. I was not convinced by his relationship with Maya. It seemed very one sided - I never felt that she returned his affections, and surely that would have raised doubts in him? And then there were the obvious inconsistencies with previous seasons.

I could accept his unravelling as a character, but I found the reason for it unconvincing - a sudden rediscovered love for a woman he knew over 15 years ago and had had no contact with in the intervening years? There were plenty of pre-existing reasons that the writers could have used that would have been consistent with Lucas' character. In the words of Spooks creator David Wolstencroft in an article in June last year about the Russian spies, "In fact , from the look of things, it [Spooks] just inherited a solid story arc for series 10 - although, that said, the real world of espionage often throws up scenarios more improbable than the fictions the series attempts to portray. As has been said many times, the problem with fiction is that it has to be plausible." In this season I think it is the plausibility that's suffering. In previous seasons, there have been plot holes and far-fetched scenarios, but (mostly) done in such a way that you can suspend disbelief and go along for the ride - and feel satisfied at the end. With the Lucas story line, I fell off the ride at some point and couldn't get back on. Sadly, it felt like "... at this stage of the unspooling lunacy it's hard to distinguish fact from parody." (Wolstencroft again - sadly prescient of S9 - or did he already know?). (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun...-nostalgia)

I'm disappointed because I think they could have shown the whole unravelling of Lucas, even to the point where he goes rogue, threatens Harry and commits suicide, by delving more deeply into the already presented flawed character (torture, imprisonment, loss of his wife) rather than creating an unconvincing identity theft scenario. Or even if they did go with the whole John vs Lucas scenario, I would have been more convinced if Lucas' actions were to erase his past and protect his current identity. Why would he want to go back to being John, when John was such an unpleasant person? And, if he met Maya at Leeds University, he had obviously left her to go to Africa, which was never explained. Arrrgh! Too many gaps in logic, not enough time to fill in John's back story to make it convincing = disappointing, implausibly implausible storyline.

However, apart from the Lucas storyline, I was definitely gripped by individual episodes. I was slightly surprised by the tangent taken by Ruth's character, but can accept it. How would any of us know how we'd react if someone was trying to kill us and it was kill or be killed? I thought her reaction afterwards showed an interesting polarity to Danny's reaction after his first kill. Danny was emotionally wrought, whereas Ruth was emotionally deadened. Different people react differently. Personally, I found Ruth's reaction more worrying. She seems to be increasingly suppressing emotions and I worry where this will end up.

It does seem to me that there is more killing with less individual/personal consequence/reaction in the more recent seasons. I don't know about in MI5, but in the Australian equivalent, ASIO, officers do not carry firearms.

Beth's character grew on me over the season after my initial uncertainty and her fast-tracking into Section D, but this is TV, so could go along for that ride. There was definite chemistry between Beth and Lucas and I would have been more inclined to believe Lucas' unravelling to protect his identity as Lucas because he was falling for Beth than the Maya scenario. Not that I think any romantic entanglement was actually necessary for Lucas this series. Anyway, I thought Dimitri and Tariq were under utilised and it will be interesting to see how their characters develop next season.

All in all, despite its faults, I did enjoy S9 and found it at times gripping - certainly more so than other television programs around. I do worry though that if it continues in its present direction it runs the danger of becoming a parody or farce. I hope S10 can shift direction.

Well, I've just spent the past few hours reading about S9 here and over on Skully's blog. Wow, lots to think about. Skully has a really interesting take on the plausibility of the Lucas/John storyline that has made me pause and think. Still digesting the series as a whole and individually. Makes me think: can we ever really know another person? Do we ever really know ourselves? How much do we, as audience, superimpose our own desires onto the characters we watch?