(01-08-2011 12:02 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  In fact, Harry is getting more and more interesting throughout the series.

Agree totally. And I think PF can be credited with much of that. I did think Harry's role took a step back in some of the latter episodes of S8 but came back in s9 which demonstrates the commitment (or lack of) to Harry as a character from the different writers. I love the fact the new writers seem to view Harry as 'the main man'. Very very curious about where they are taking Harry this time.

I also LOVE the fact that Harry is not a young stud, pretty face, action hero character, yet on these and other boards, he has a huge following from both male and female fans. Very interesting. Very skillful.

(PS not that I'm saying I don't find PF gorgeous, but you all know what I mean by the above )

To me, Harry is just about the only character that showed consistent character development throughout his time on the show. How boring would it be if he'd stayed exactly the same, no matter what calamities befell him? In that sense I liked where they took him in season 9. After everything that's happened, basically from that day Ruth stepped onto that boat and left, to Ros' death, Harry went through an awful lot. Adam died, Connie betrayed him, his own side accused him of being a Russian spy, he was kidnapped and fake-executed (and must surely have believed for a few awful minutes they were going to execute him for real), then had to make the decision to let Ruth's lover and stepchild die, then had to live with Ruth's reaction to that. On top of this Ros dies, Ruth says she can't marry him and the former HS turns out to be a traitor as well. I think it would have been unrealistic if Harry had remained his self-assured, breezy self after all of that.

But I do hope he comes through it all, and whatever they have planned for him in season 10, and be the stronger for it at the end. I wouldn't like to see them totally break the poor man.

As you must realize by now, I am partial to Ruth. She went through tremendous personal growth too. To me and to NW, it is amazing that she still loves Harry after the death of George. In fact, I think that Ruth, as a desk officer, has shown even more consistent character development than Harry.

How long has Harry been Head of Section D? Do you think that he experienced some traumatic events early on, shortly after his appointment to Section D, before the arrival of Ruth and when Lucas was first Section Chief? I suppose it goes with the territory to feel responsible for the deaths of your subordinates and to face death yourself. I wonder whether the heads of the other MI-5 sections have experienced the same professional/personal pressures as Harry and how long they have lasted in their jobs.

I think that we all are fascinated by the intertwined path taken by Harry and Ruth over the years.

(01-08-2011 05:55 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  To me and to NW, it is amazing that she still loves Harry after the death of George.

It's distressing to me that anyone (including Ruth and NW) could blame Harry for George's death. He didn't even know about George until suddenly he was sitting in a room with Ruth with a gun to both their heads. He wasn't the one that put George in danger. He was following all the tricks in the book to drag out the situation as long as possible so that a rescue could be attempted and then Ruth leaps in and discloses the whereabouts of a WMD the instant she is asked. It is her getting it wrong that makes Mani give the order to shoot George. Harry knows George is a dead man anyway. He didn't give the order and he didn't pull the trigger. All he did was protect the world from a real WMD as was his duty. Ruth would have been the first one to blame him if he had given away the lives of thousands for the sake of one life - oh yes, that sounds familiar!! Blaming Harry for George's death would make her the most massive hypocrite on the planet, and as I am also a huge fan of Ruth I refuse to believe that she blames him. I choose to believe that she is incredibly ashamed of herself. Harry trusted her with a huge national secret and the second she was put under pressure she crumbled and gave it up (or thought she did). She then sat and watched a much stronger and braver Harry not give in to the same pressure in spite of the pleading of the love of his life. I also think she was ashamed that he clearly had not moved on from loving her whilst in the space of a few years she had created an entire new family and home for herself. So I choose to believe that she was not in love with George but that they had a mutual understanding, having both lost the love of their lives, that they could have a companionship without the love that neither of them could give.

I was very disappointed in NW when she said about Harry "he had her husband killed". NO HE DIDN'T!!!!!!!!! If she thinks that about her own character I find myself doubting that she will portray Ruth in quite the way she is in my head (which is, of course, the right way )

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(01-08-2011 05:04 PM)Silktie Wrote:  To me, Harry is just about the only character that showed consistent character development throughout his time on the show. How boring would it be if he'd stayed exactly the same, no matter what calamities befell him? In that sense I liked where they took him in season 9. After everything that's happened, basically from that day Ruth stepped onto that boat and left, to Ros' death, Harry went through an awful lot. Adam died, Connie betrayed him, his own side accused him of being a Russian spy, he was kidnapped and fake-executed (and must surely have believed for a few awful minutes they were going to execute him for real), then had to make the decision to let Ruth's lover and stepchild die, then had to live with Ruth's reaction to that. On top of this Ros dies, Ruth says she can't marry him and the former HS turns out to be a traitor as well. I think it would have been unrealistic if Harry had remained his self-assured, breezy self after all of that.

My word, Silktie. When you put it like that it's a wonder the poor man can get up in the morning. And yet still he does, for the sake of us all. What a hero he is.

Oh, boy, what did I write? In fact, you are putting words in my mouth. I did not blame Harry for the death of George. I only mention that it was amazing that Ruth could still love Harry, when George was shot more or less in front of her. If I were in the same situation and perhaps NW was thinking the same, I know that I could not go on working with Harry. I would also have given the location of the uranium if my children - to Ruth Nico was her child - were threatened by a terrorist. Ruth knows very well that it is not Harry's fault that George was shot and she feels guilty for not loving George as much as Harry. Perhaps George's death could have been avoided if Harry had given the information about the uranium, when he was first held hostage by Mani and before Ruth was involved.

Ruth thought that she would never see Harry again and she had to rebuild her life; after all she is 17 younger than Harry. What was she supposed to do alone abroad, live like a nun? Harry did not try to look for her, even though he could have found her easily with all the resources of Section D. I think that Harry felt guilty for not coming after her and he did not resent Ruth's rebuilding her life.

I hope that we never hear about George again.

As PF said himself, Spooks is just entertainment. We should enjoy the fabulous acting of PF and NW in S10, as we did in 8.1 and all the other episodes. It is to their credit that we all get so involved in H/R.

I totally agree. Theres definitly guilt on both sides but its getting 2 da point where they would have no life at all if they didnt spend it together. Theres just far 2 much there. Its extraordinary how intense their relationship has become in light of the fact that nic and pete started off by jus adding their own subtle interpretations to the characters burgeoning attraction.

(01-08-2011 05:55 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  In fact, I think that Ruth, as a desk officer, has shown even more consistent character development than Harry.

I should have been more clear. I am not saying Harry is the only one who has shown character development, but he has been most consistent in his development. By that I mean that he has had the least unexplained personality changes to fit the story.

Ruth has also shown much growth, but it has not been as consistent, in my view. There is a marked difference between the Ruth of season 8 and the Ruth of season 9 that is unexplained. Despite all the horrors that have befallen her, the Ruth of season 8 was still the one who reminded the others that they were working with people, not chess pieces, who questioned the morality of what they are doing. She was patient with the weaknesses of others as well. But in season 9, she is suddenly much harder. It is now all about the success of the operation, and sometimes just a numbers game: as long as you save more than you sacrifice it's acceptable. She is also impatient with the weaknesses shown by others. Taking into account that there couldn't have been more than a week or two time-wise between 8.8 and 9.1, how does one account for this very sudden change in her personality?

With Harry, you can more or less draw a line in his development from the stodgy, unemotional man in season 1 that was confident in his decisions, through the gradual opening up of himself and allowing others to get close (Ruth, Adam & Wes, Ros), to the man who is no longer so confident in what he's doing after everything he's been through by season 9. I think he benefits in that sense from being the one comforting constant of the show - the writers couldn't change him too much on top of all the character replacements we've had.

I agree with that Silktie.

I'm still not quite sure what you're saying, Bea. Why should it be impossible to love Harry having seen George shot in front of her? Should it be impossible for her to love anyone then, because George was shot? Or just Harry? In which case you are kind of saying that surely she must hold Harry responsible. And are you really saying that Harry should have handed over a WMD to a criminal at the point when only his own life was at stake on the offchance that Ruth might suddenly appear on the scene with a child in tow (when he has carefully protected her from such things for years by deliberately not seeking her out however much he might have wanted to!). Don't get me wrong, I don't blame Ruth. I too would have done anything to save my child. I just think she would torture herself with guilt about it afterwards. I also think she would then have shown a little more understanding to someone who then did the exact same thing (or so she thought) for love of her - if her character development had been consistent (as per Silktie's comments).

Don't worry, I'm not really getting myself as worked up about this as I clearly sound! It's just that your opinion is quite widely held (even by NW herself if would seem) and it therefore seems quite a high possibility that the storyline will follow the same kind of vein. If it does, I would be (relatively) happy if I could just follow the logic of it. But this line of thought is such a genuine mystery to me that I know I will hate the entire series because I'll spend the whole time screaming "but why?". I'm seeking clarification of the logic now to try and guard against that so I can enjoy Series 10 whatever it decides to throw at us.

Further discussion on whether Ruth blames Harry for George's death should be taken to the Harry/Ruth thread, please.

(02-08-2011 06:04 AM)Silktie Wrote:  

(01-08-2011 05:55 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  In fact, I think that Ruth, as a desk officer, has shown even more consistent character development than Harry.

I should have been more clear. I am not saying Harry is the only one who has shown character development, but he has been most consistent in his development. By that I mean that he has had the least unexplained personality changes to fit the story.

Ruth has also shown much growth, but it has not been as consistent, in my view. There is a marked difference between the Ruth of season 8 and the Ruth of season 9 that is unexplained. Despite all the horrors that have befallen her, the Ruth of season 8 was still the one who reminded the others that they were working with people, not chess pieces, who questioned the morality of what they are doing. She was patient with the weaknesses of others as well. But in season 9, she is suddenly much harder. It is now all about the success of the operation, and sometimes just a numbers game: as long as you save more than you sacrifice it's acceptable. She is also impatient with the weaknesses shown by others. Taking into account that there couldn't have been more than a week or two time-wise between 8.8 and 9.1, how does one account for this very sudden change in her personality?

With Harry, you can more or less draw a line in his development from the stodgy, unemotional man in season 1 that was confident in his decisions, through the gradual opening up of himself and allowing others to get close (Ruth, Adam & Wes, Ros), to the man who is no longer so confident in what he's doing after everything he's been through by season 9. I think he benefits in that sense from being the one comforting constant of the show - the writers couldn't change him too much on top of all the character replacements we've had.

I hope for all of us that you are right about Harry in S10. I think that only at the end of S10 we will find out whether Spooks has respected the constant character development of Harry.

Just one quick remark about Ruth (I do not know how to transfer your reply to the Ruth's thread; is it just copy and paste?). In 9.4 Ruth asked Harry to do something to prevent Kai to be handed to the CIA and in 9.7 she felt guilty about the way she treated poor Keith Deery. Has she changed that much from S8? As NW said and I agree with her, in S8 the writers brushed over Ruth's reactions to the traumatic events of 8.1. In S9 the new writers (?) dealt with them, especially in regard to Ruth's interaction with Harry.

I only hope that in S10 we do not become like Lucas's fans, hopping mad and totally disgusted with the treatment of Harry's character. That really would be a shame.