Ah, okay, got it. Thanks for explaining. In this sense I definitely agree with you - that his sure moral sense will be his final downfall, probably the loss of his career in the end?

And no, I don't think you're over analysing - I think PF made that comment for a reason, so I'm expecting something along these lines to happen. Just not sure how we'll get to that point, and the journey is looking mighty promising on the evidence of the first episode.

I agree that Peter referencing a Greek tragedy is not insignificant and you're making a good point. Yes, they did replay the old HS and his words, which fits nicely with your hypothesis and indeed with Harry's character. Not so sure the writers and producers would've thought that deeply about it. But I do believe Harry will face a heartbreaking decision at some point in this series where his loyalty to the realm will be tested against his personal life. I also believe that whatever the outcome, the series will end with him leaving MI5, in one capacity or another. I don't think it will involve Ruth, as he's already done that in S9.

I think part of this Greek tragedy will involve Sacha finding out about his true identity and we will see him chasing both his 'father's' approval and destruction at the same time.

(21-09-2011 04:21 AM)loladom Wrote:  Not so sure the writers and producers would've thought that deeply about it.

Yeah, me too. But, it's good to know that I am not completely in my own world here. It just really sounded like something a producer would say to the cast at the first reading to give them a general feel for the series. And it could turn out to be just that - a general tone of the series and not a direct parallel. It would not be the first time Kudos has pillaged Greek mythology, theater and literature for fodder for Spooks. Just never on such a large scale.

However....

I have been thinking about the father/son conflict theme. This theme is as old as Ancient Greek civilization. Remember The Son of Kronos from 4.1 (Maybe 4.2)? That is the first instance of a son/father conflict in Ancient Greek mythology. It's part of their creation myth. Just putting that out there and filing it away in my brain along with the Oedipus and Medea myths.

And B4Ruth, is it melodramatic? Maybe. But Ancient Greek theater was melodramatic - stylistically speaking. I suggest that Spooks is as well. The definition of melodrama is a style of theater that exaggerates plot and character in order to appeal, one might say manipulate, the emotion of the viewers. For me, Melodrama::Greek Theater as Greek Theater::Spooks. It's part of the reason I enjoy it. It's just so epic in scope!

Well surely this is Harry done for career wise? He has a son who is a FSB officer. If this secret comes out, he will only be fit for working in the MI5 canteen. No way would they let Harry continue on as Head of the Counter Terrorism team. It just wouldn't happen. If this secret isn't kept, bye bye career. That begs the question then, if "Russia" knows about Sasha being Harry's son, why the hell did they let him join the FSB? Bit of a risk don't you think? Therefore I think the two files together showing the lovely beardless pictures of Harry and Sasha, was a red-herring. They don't know. Whether they know about Harry and Elena is another thing.

I felt very sorry for Harry at the start of the show. Looking out of the window of his house. He must have thought that was his last day in the Service. Also, the the meeting with Sasha did effect him, as his head dropped when the front door closed, and Harry was alone again.

OK, I am going to contradict myself. I know that I have suggested that the files of Sasha, Harry and Elena at the Moscow meeting implied that the Russians knew about the filiation.

I still have some doubts about Sasha's paternity. Somehow, I can't imagine Harry being the father. Sasha does not look like his birth parents, Elena and Harry. But it does not mean anything. Looks skip generations.

I am more concerned about the character of Sasha. He has a volatile temper and no self-control. Both Elena and Harry are very self-restrained. It is also a mystery to me why a FSB officer is so impulsive that he waves his gun around Harry's room. Perhaps Sasha will be less reckless in Episode 2. Poor Harry, if Sasha is really his son.

Elena might have told Harry that Sasha was his son to control Harry, which is not unheard of. In fact, we know nothing about the relationship except for the kissing and the 3 of them standing in a fenced-off and well-kept propriety. I still believe that this location, so unlike the bullet-ridden rundown appartment buildings of East Berlin, is a key clue to the story.

I must admit that Kudos is very good at throwing out red herrings and I am always ready to be fooled by them.

(21-09-2011 08:38 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

Well surely this is Harry done for career wise? He has a son who is a FSB officer. If this secret comes out, he will only be fit for working in the MI5 canteen. No way would they let Harry continue on as Head of the Counter Terrorism team. It just wouldn't happen. If this secret isn't kept, bye bye career.

Agreed. However, I think it was over anywaybefore this whole business came to light. He would not have survived the Inquiry, and Towers states emphatically that his reinstatement is only a stay of execution but that they still want him out.

Quote: That begs the question then, if "Russia" knows about Sasha being Harry's son, why the hell did they let him join the FSB? Bit of a risk don't you think? Therefore I think the two files together showing the lovely beardless pictures of Harry and Sasha, was a red-herring. They don't know. Whether they know about Harry and Elena is another thing.

At this stage we don't know yet whether the Russians we saw at the beginning having that cryptic conversation were Russian government officials. They could be a rogue FSB element, or even Russian mafia. Ilya Gavrik is now a wealthy man, perhaps he picked up some less honest connections in getting that rich and they are hatching some plot with him?

My point being that we don't know whether it's the Russian government or FSB that knows Sasha is Harry's. Or perhaps they only recently found out and he was already and FSB officer by then, and they decided to use it to their advantage.

I also wonder whether perhaps it was the CIA that told them about Harry and Elena, and Sasha being his son. CIA buddy Jim knew. When the US found out that Britain was going to dump them for a closer partnership with the old enemy instead, they weren't happy, and this is one of the steps they could have taken to put a spanner in the wheels of Britain's plans.

More questions than answers at this stage. The only thing that is sure is that Harry is in deep doo-doo.

Harry did not tell Ruth that his reinstatement was only temporary. I wonder whether her words "No, Harry, that cannot be the end" is related to her finding out that the governement wants Harry out. Besides her brilliance, perhaps it might be one of the reasons Towers wants to promote Ruth. He knows that Harry is not going to last long.
If Harry learns about the promotion, perhaps he will encourage Ruth to take it since his days in Section D are limited.

I hope that Harry is not going to do something reckless now that he knows that his days are numbered as head of Section D. He might give up fighting all the rumors or just keep fighting to save his honor. It must be a very uncomfortable position for him. I feel sorry for him.

I know that I am repeating myself. But if indeed Harry is the father of Sascha, his secret has been an open secret for a long time, even from the beginning. He had been having the affair with Elena for at least 5 years, according to the age of Sasha on the flashbacks. To me, it would have been impossible to hide it from intelligence agencies for so long.

The CIA through Jim Coaver knew about it. I can't believe that MI-6 did not realize that Harry went beyond the official use of an asset. The KGB monitored its citizens very closely, even in East Germany. The meeting of Harry, Elena and Sasha at an official-looking location was way too obvious. Did they often meet there or was it just the one time? Was it the good-bye meeting between Harry, Elena and Sasha? Where did Harry and Elena meet otherwise? We are talking about East Berlin, a not very large city, and not West Germany where Elena and Harry could blend in.

On another note, I found it thouching when during the hearing Harry acknowledged publicly Ruth's sacrifice for him at the time of Cotterdam.

Sorry, I have to pick up on some of these points

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  Harry did not tell Ruth that his reinstatement was only temporary.

Ruth was sitting right behind Harry when the terms of his temporary reinstatement were spelled out to him by the judge. She is fully aware.

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  I hope that Harry is not going to do something reckless now that he knows that his days are numbered as head of Section D. He might give up fighting all the rumors or just keep fighting to save his honor.

Reckless? Harry? Well that's his trade mark. However, Harry has faced the threat of losing his position on several occasions and each time he has viewed the moral stance above his own interests and his job. The instance of the burglary and stolen briefcase springs to mind. He has never tried to protect his own arse. His recklessness has never stemmed from the need for self protection. His officers, and Ruth yes, but himself -no. If he remains in character, the temporary nature of his position will not affect how he 'serves his country in what capacity he is required to' And any bending of rules for Elena and Sacha will be about them, not him.

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  if indeed Harry is the father of Sascha, his secret has been an open secret for a long time, even from the beginning. He had been having the affair with Elena for at least 5 years, according to the age of Sasha on the flashbacks. To me, it would have been impossible to hide it from intelligence agencies for so long.

We don't know how long the physical affair lasted. The scene in the park was perhaps when the defection was called off, or when Harry was told about Sacha. Of course they didn't take family outings to the park, they were ‘enemies,’ they were married, it was the 80s. You don't think people were able to conduct affairs in secret?

And how on earth do you conclude it is an open secret??? Why do you believe so many people knew for so long? If that was the case, Elena would not have survived 30 yrs living back in Russia. Harry is a spy, their lives were cleverly crafted. (And he was a married man having an affair....clever at that, they are )It's totally feasible to have kept this secret. That's how the whole spying game worked, assets were kept for years. These guys were masters at their game. Probably more so in the cold war than at any other time.

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  The CIA through Jim Coaver knew about it. I can't believe that MI-6 did not realize that Harry went beyond the official use of an asset.

We don't know what Jim Coaver knows exactly. He was in on the possible defection and he hinted at Harry and Elena being close that doesn't mean he knows about the boy for certain. We also don't know what he told his superiors, he burned the file remember? Loss of defector=loss of face for Jim. Field agents are mavericks, often working on their own. It's highly possible that neither the CIA nor MI6 knew the extent of Harry's affair. To them, she may well have just been Harry's honey trap and asset. The powers that be cared little how agents turned their assets. How much did Harry ever really know about Tom and Christine or Lucas and Sarah while it was actually happening?

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  The KGB monitored its citizens very closely, even in East Germany. The meeting of Harry, Elena and Sasha at an official-looking location was way too obvious. D

What official location? It looked like behind apartment blocks to me with the fenced in playgrounds so typical across Europe, including Eastern Europe and especially typical to Moscow. And yes, I’m old enough and travelled enough to say that with confidence.

I don't understand why you're finding it so difficult to believe the KGB didn't know everything at the time. The whole spying game during the cold war ran on the fact that so many secrets were kept. Even within Russia itself there are countless real life stories of secrets – state and personal. If the KGB knew everything about everyone, then none of the political movements to dismantle the Soviet block would ever have come to fruition! It's like North Korea now, don't believe the propaganda that they know EVERYTHING. Because they don't. If MI6 and the CIA knew everything in real life, 9/11 would never have happened.

And do we know this relationship took place in East Berlin? Harry talks about Berlin, he could've been stationed in the West, from my understanding there were lots of KGB agents spying in West Berlin too. The Gavricks could’ve been under cover in the West. Possible (Could someone with a diary check Harry’s entry for Berlin?)

Sorry, but this is looking for holes based on assumptions we don't actually know yet. I'm just trying to enjoy an excellent Tv show with some degree of perspective. I know Spooks will always suspend reality, it's a drama, (a melodramatic one) after all, but let’s give it credit where it actually can capture realism.

Following on from above, Elena was already married to Ilya, so Sasha would have been brought up as legitimate. Ilya cannot know that Harry is Sasha's true father, he was a member of the KGB, Elena would have been shot or imprisoned. It's hardly going to be 'an open secret'.

(22-09-2011 02:55 PM)loladom Wrote:  Sorry, I have to pick up on some of these points

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  Harry did not tell Ruth that his reinstatement was only temporary.

Ruth was sitting right behind Harry when the terms of his temporary reinstatement were spelled out to him by the judge. She is fully aware.

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  I hope that Harry is not going to do something reckless now that he knows that his days are numbered as head of Section D. He might give up fighting all the rumors or just keep fighting to save his honor.

Reckless? Harry? Well that's his trade mark. However, Harry has faced the threat of losing his position on several occasions and each time he has viewed the moral stance above his own interests and his job. The instance of the burglary and stolen briefcase springs to mind. He has never tried to protect his own arse. His recklessness has never stemmed from the need for self protection. His officers, and Ruth yes, but himself -no. If he remains in character, the temporary nature of his position will not affect how he 'serves his country in what capacity he is required to' And any bending of rules for Elena and Sacha will be about them, not him.

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  if indeed Harry is the father of Sascha, his secret has been an open secret for a long time, even from the beginning. He had been having the affair with Elena for at least 5 years, according to the age of Sasha on the flashbacks. To me, it would have been impossible to hide it from intelligence agencies for so long.

We don't know how long the physical affair lasted. The scene in the park was perhaps when the defection was called off, or when Harry was told about Sacha. Of course they didn't take family outings to the park, they were ‘enemies,’ they were married, it was the 80s. You don't think people were able to conduct affairs in secret?

And how on earth do you conclude it is an open secret??? Why do you believe so many people knew for so long? If that was the case, Elena would not have survived 30 yrs living back in Russia. Harry is a spy, their lives were cleverly crafted. (And he was a married man having an affair....clever at that, they are )It's totally feasible to have kept this secret. That's how the whole spying game worked, assets were kept for years. These guys were masters at their game. Probably more so in the cold war than at any other time.

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  The CIA through Jim Coaver knew about it. I can't believe that MI-6 did not realize that Harry went beyond the official use of an asset.

We don't know what Jim Coaver knows exactly. He was in on the possible defection and he hinted at Harry and Elena being close that doesn't mean he knows about the boy for certain. We also don't know what he told his superiors, he burned the file remember? Loss of defector=loss of face for Jim. Field agents are mavericks, often working on their own. It's highly possible that neither the CIA nor MI6 knew the extent of Harry's affair. To them, she may well have just been Harry's honey trap and asset. The powers that be cared little how agents turned their assets. How much did Harry ever really know about Tom and Christine or Lucas and Sarah while it was actually happening?

(22-09-2011 10:44 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  The KGB monitored its citizens very closely, even in East Germany. The meeting of Harry, Elena and Sasha at an official-looking location was way too obvious. D

What official location? It looked like behind apartment blocks to me with the fenced in playgrounds so typical across Europe, including Eastern Europe and especially typical to Moscow. And yes, I’m old enough and travelled enough to say that with confidence.

I don't understand why you're finding it so difficult to believe the KGB didn't know everything at the time. The whole spying game during the cold war ran on the fact that so many secrets were kept. Even within Russia itself there are countless real life stories of secrets – state and personal. If the KGB knew everything about everyone, then none of the political movements to dismantle the Soviet block would ever have come to fruition! It's like North Korea now, don't believe the propaganda that they know EVERYTHING. Because they don't. If MI6 and the CIA knew everything in real life, 9/11 would never have happened.

And do we know this relationship took place in East Berlin? Harry talks about Berlin, he could've been stationed in the West, from my understanding there were lots of KGB agents spying in West Berlin too. The Gavricks could’ve been under cover in the West. Possible (Could someone with a diary check Harry’s entry for Berlin?)

Sorry, but this is looking for holes based on assumptions we don't actually know yet. I'm just trying to enjoy an excellent Tv show with some degree of perspective. I know Spooks will always suspend reality, it's a drama, (a melodramatic one) after all, but let’s give it credit where it actually can capture realism.

What puzzled me about the flashback was the obelisk in the garden? To me the scene did not look like a playground. I remember the playground of the Zagreb orphanage where one of my sons was raised and it was derelic with a few apparatus such as swings and sandboxes. The orphanage was fenced off with the playground in the middle of the grounds. In 1991 we went to other playgrounds in Zagreb, at the time communist Yugoslavia, and besides their rundown equipment, I can't remember them fenced off the way we see it in the flashback.

It will be interesting to find out whether they met in West Berlin. I think that Jim Coaver talked about East Berlin.

I have never been to Moscow. But I was in East Berlin in the early 80s and remembered too well being followed by the Stasi, which was not a very pleasant feeling. It might have been because I worked for a European embassy in West Germany and visited friends from an Ally embassy in East Berlin. We were told in no certain terms that we were monitored by the Stasi and we were not allowed to go where we wanted to. The persons who told us that were well aware of the situation for a very good reason. I can't say more, it's classified!

What I am trying to say is that Harry was not an ordinary tourist. I am sure that the KGB knew that Harry was an Ally intelligence agent, however good he was. I think that he was more closely watched than a regular citizen. After all, I remember Harry or was it Jim saying that from 1981 to 1984 Elena was working for them. It's a long time and I still can't believe that nobody knew about his secret, especially if Elena was already married to the KGB officer Ilya. She must have been crazy to have an affair with Harry. She was risking her life already then.

Up to now, none of the previous storylines have bothered me. I have just accepted them at their face value. Perhaps because I knew the era and the location, this time I am more sensitive to the storyline. If I cannot quite believe it, that's my problem.

Even if the plot was totally absurd, it does not really matter. The greatest joy for me is to watch PF and NW together. I am also looking forward to the impersonator plot.