(26-10-2011 04:42 PM)Silktie Wrote:  Here's something that baffles me:

Why would Elena say that Harry was too decent to go through with her extraction? How is making someone a promise and then reneging on it 'decent'?

Didnt she then contradict herself by saying he had to make the choice between being a good man and a good spy? Obviously she was trying to say you couldn't be both.

One thing that still baffles me is why Jim Coaver was killed and what was on his laptop. Did Coaver know about Elena being a double agent then? My brain can't quite connect all the dots here.

At least Harry has a new drinking buddy now in Gavrik.

(26-10-2011 05:14 PM)Beatriz Wrote:  What I don't get is some comments about what should or shouldn't have happened, or whether it was fair or unfair... I know this is a show, but life is not precisely about fairness and justice...
I undertand that people can be disappointed by the ending, and that sucks, but the writers have outlayed an ending that thought fitting and that's all... Like it or not...

Yes: surely the whole point of Ruth's death, its lead-in and its aftermath, is that it is a result of all the choices made by and for her in her life to that moment. It is neither fair, nor unfair. It is simply consequence. Ruth is not herself anything other than an agent of determinsim (or a victim of the determinsim of others, depending on your interpretation of active/passive being in time). This is not to say she has no value other than as an agent/victim of determinism. Clealry she is of value in the narrative, both actual and meta, and clealry she has value to Harry. But the point of the event and circumstance of her death is that it happened on this occasion, rather than on any other. Someone was going to have to deal with it eventually, whether it was her cat, her neighbour, her closest living relative, or a stranger in the street. Circumstances dicated that it was Harry, and narrative convention dictated that we be witness to that.

Novun - I am thinking about Harry and his children. I believe that he will reconnect to them now that he knows that Sasha is not his son. Elena was really evil and she knew what she had done to Harry, when she told Ruth that Harry could not have a real relationship because of his guilt regarding her and Sasha. Elena was right and the same could apply to Harry's children. The guilt about Sasha prevented Harry to invest himself totally into his children. True, it was also his demanding job.

Like you, I like to believe that there will be some personal redemption for Harry out of so much pain. He was deeply loved by Ruth and he will try to find peace with his children, the only loved ones left. I would hate for him to stay in his job with such a bleak future.

Really, given the way things were between Harry and Ruth were this season, and following up from last, i don't see them as being physically intimate beyond what was shown. There were a lot of trust issues this year, and I don't know about anyone else here, but if I had someone who I loved but couldn't fully trust, I wouldn't be sleeping with them. Despite Ruth and Harry knowing and trusting each other with their lives, there were too many secrets. As Ruth said near the beginning of this season, someone doesn't love another on a need to know basis.

I'm a big HR fan, don't get me wrong, and I was gutted at Ruth's death, but I didn't see the need for a sex scene. I wouldn't have objected to a hug or a kiss on the seaside hill where they were at the end, before Sasha showed up, but it wasn't completely necessary for me to know how they felt about each other. They also didn't need to say 'I love you' in that scene; to me, that was implied when she asked Harry to move into the cottage with her.

Yes, why was Jim Coaver kidnapped and killed. I don't think he knew about Elena because he said to Harry that they would work together to figure it out.

Yes, why was Jim Coaver kidnapped and killed. I don't think he knew about Elena because he said to Harry that they would work together to figure it out.

(26-10-2011 05:53 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  I would hate for him to stay in his job with such a bleak future.

Surely Harry acknowledged the bleakness of his future well before this when he told the Home Secretary: "We cannot win the war on terror." Harry's context, and awareness of his context, is necessarily much bigger and more demanding than his personal relationships. Somethimes, we, and he, can focus on one as a factor in the ecosystem of the other (such as when he tries to speak to Catherine while he is driving to meet Lucas-is-John in 9.8). However, Harry's ontology is one in which he is required to sublimate his fate to the will of people and ideological systems who wish him harm. Isn't that the principal message of Spooks?: be grateful there are people like Harry, the actions of whom mean you never have to know what it's like to be a person like Harry. None more bleak (or more reassuring?).


Sometimes I wonder if I am in the target audience for this show!!

I'm inclined to think that Coaver (the Americans in general actually) knew far more than he ever got the chance to tell. Remember that in our first introduction to him, he was in Langley being ordered to go to London. Someone in the upper echelons of the CIA knew that there was something brewing with the Russians and that Gavrik had something to do with it (even if they didn't know which one)...

Also, I think it's worth remembering that Elena and her goons were fairly isolated in London. If Harry had got the opportunity to work with Coaver and build a joint MI5/CIA team to investigate (assuming Coaver knew nothing other than Harry's supposed parentage of Sasha), I expect they would have been swiftly captured, particularly since the Mossad woman was a CIA asset.

I reckon the Coaver killing was a pre-emptive strike to prevent this from happening and allow the Russian nationalists to carry on with their plan.

---

I had previously posted the comments below on the Harry Pearce thread, but they're more appropriate here tbh:

Beatrice4Ruth & Festa,

While I'm here, perhaps you could answer a question for me? You seem particularly galled that we don't see any physical side of the H/R relationship - can I ask why? These two fine actors have conveyed more of their complicated relationship through subtlety of gesture and playing than any tawdry sex scene ever could IMHO. One thing obvious from your many posts is your absolute belief in the love that you feel H&R share. How would seeing them get down and dirty improve on that for you? Knowing how the story reaches it's conclusion, if you'd seen "intimacy", as you put it, how would you be feeling now - better or worse?

If you want to see middle aged people having sex however, I can recommend several helpful websites... JOKE!

(26-10-2011 05:37 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(26-10-2011 04:42 PM)Silktie Wrote:  Here's something that baffles me:

Why would Elena say that Harry was too decent to go through with her extraction? How is making someone a promise and then reneging on it 'decent'?

Didnt she then contradict herself by saying he had to make the choice between being a good man and a good spy? Obviously she was trying to say you couldn't be both.

We have to remember that Elena was a double (triple? My head hurts.... ) agent. Everything she said in that scene in the MOD bunker was calculated to throw Harry off.

That said, in the moment, I thought she meant that Harry was too decent to fight Coaver any harder when he confronted Harry during the extraction. Harry also understood that Coaver was protecting his agents by blocking the extraction. The sacrificing of the many (agents) for the few (Elena/Sasha). Even then with Harry, it's all in the maths, I suppose.

Question: Was the extraction sanctioned or not? If it wasn't, he was disregarding orders by continuing. If it was, he'd have to kill Jim, a friend, to continue. Imagine! Harry with an American friend!?! The mind boggles...

Speaking of Americans, I was brave enough to rewatch last night got a giggle out of the CIA in their big, black Tahoes and Hummers plowing through the woods. Dumb a** cars that they are.(*Sssshhhhh...if we paint them black, you caaaaan't see meeee!* )

And the CIA agent with the wrist comm was totally getting off on it. He was having a blast!

(26-10-2011 06:57 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  Question: Was the extraction sanctioned or not? If it wasn't, he was disregarding orders by continuing. If it was, he'd have to kill Jim, a friend, to continue. Imagine! Harry with an American friend!?! The mind boggles...

Speaking of Americans, I was brave enough to rewatch last night got a giggle out of the CIA in their big, black Tahoes and Hummers plowing through the woods. Dumb a** cars that they are.(*Sssshhhhh...if we paint them black, you caaaaan't see meeee!* )

And the CIA agent with the wrist comm was totally getting off on it. He was having a blast!

Harry with an American friend? Good grief, next thing he'll be getting a tortoise in da garden to complete with the Gavriks

My CIA training was many years ago now but I would have thought, if two vehicles in a convoy were picked out and targeted, wouldn't that tell you they wanted the third vehicle? The vehicle that had "the package." ? Why did they let the vehicle go on? Surely the plane could have waited? Were the in-flight meals getting cold or something? Was the pilot desperate for the loo and couldn't hang about? Next stop Morroco?

To be honest though, they could have put Harry in a Tiger Tank and "De" and Erin, would have got him out. "De" is Chuck Norris you know.

P.S. Gillymac, can you let me know what that site is called...