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Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - JHyde - 23-05-2010 09:11 AM
Adam and Danny wrangle a bad guy and Ruth coaches Harry.
What did you all think?
Owen Teale who plays Morgan is so good in this episode. He's done a lot of really good shows over the years, most notably as Jimmy Nesbitt's handler in Season 3 of Murphy's Law and as one of the main men in the cannibalistic tribe in the 'Countrycide' episode of Torchwood.
Were Adam and Harry right to bring the child into the equation? In this case, I happen to agree with what they did, abhorrent as it was. In all truth, had he still refused, it would have been his actions directly leading to her death and that needed to be brought home to Morgan. I think this is what Ruth was telling herself when she handed over the information to Harry. That or she was just blocking it out altogether, but Ruth isn't the sort to do that, I think.
And a big episode for Harry and Ruth. I love how Harry still has mixed feelings about not getting the job and his Muttley laugh at the end, one of the few times we get to see Harry laugh on the show. It's also a good opportunity for us to hear where Harry's moral line is drawn in the sand, when you see him in his interview.
I think on another season 3 thread there was a consensus that only Danny comes out of this episode looking 'good'. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but certainly this episode is pretty ugly in many ways.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - Aria - 23-05-2010 10:23 AM
I love this episode its my second favourite from season 3. I like it because it doesn't shy away from showing the ugly side of Intelligence work and that questionable things need to be done in the name of security. Loved the scene with Adam and Fiona towards the end where Adam is talking about paint as a metaphor. One thing I wasn't sure about was Danny telling Harry about Adam and his actions towards Morgan. In previous episodes Harry has been seen as an omniscient presence on the Grid, he literally knows everything, so why would Danny think he doesn't know what they are actually doing to Morgan?
Also loved that we see another side to Adam, he is no longer the charming, laid back and superficial character he appeared to be. His scenes with Fiona were brilliant.
Loved the H/R scenes in this especially Harry's looks when Ruth corners him in his office to question him. Also loved the ending as JHyde says with his Muttley like laugh.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - JHyde - 23-05-2010 10:41 AM
I honestly think if it hadn't have been for 3.9 and 3.10 RPJ might not have signed on for another season. In two separate interviews he said that he was prepared to come back because 'towards the end of season 3 we got to see who Adam really is, what make him tick. Prior to that....' I might have paraphrased slightly but I remember a profile piece he did with Australian press round about the time season 4 started. He says a lesser version of this in the season 4 extras. (I've spent the last six months trying to find this damn article!)
Certainly I think this was the tipping point for the character, where we really became invested in him.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - Nitrus - 23-05-2010 12:47 PM
I liked this episode. It presented some interesting moral dilemmas and raised intriguing questions about whether the end always justifies the means.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - Silktie - 23-05-2010 01:13 PM
This is one of my all-time favourite Spooks episodes. I just love how they don't flinch away from portraying the questionable methods our heroes resort to to get the job done. It's interesting that the only two people who don't question whether they should be going this far is Adam and Harry. At various times in the episode Danny, Fiona and Ruth are shown as being ambivalent about what they're doing, but Adam and Harry never waver from their willingness to do whatever it takes to safeguard London. Yet, in the end scenes, both Adam and Harry shows an awareness of what doing these things does to one's own humanity.
This is the episode that made me really love Adam. He is terrifyingly menacing in his encounters with Morgan, yet RPJ never fails to show us a glimpse of Adam's vulnerability through it all. Danny's concern that Adam loses himself in this stuff and doesn't realise how far he's taking it, is inaccurate I think. Adam is very aware of the consequences to himself of what he's doing, but he's also very aware of the consequences for innocent people if he doesn't do it. So in a sense, he's sacrificing his own humanity to save that of his fellow countrymen.
Can there ever be a definitive wrong or right in these circumstances? Is it ever okay to torture someone? The idealistic answer is no, but I don't see any alternative in this instance. If there is incontrovertable evidence that someone is planning an attack that would kill possibly hundreds of innocent people, should you allow the attack to happen on the grounds that torture is wrong? In such an instance I for one would be glad that there are people like Adam and Harry willing to sell a piece of their soul to keep me safe. As long as they don't show them revelling in the pain they're inflicting, I can live with it.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - Nitrus - 23-05-2010 01:38 PM
It's worth it to save the lives of the innocent. Now if Morgan happened to be completely innoncent then I would still argue it would be worth it to save the lives of many.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - Beatriz - 23-05-2010 07:05 PM
I agree with Nitrus, you have to be very sure that somebody is guilty to resort to torture...
I liked this episode a lot. As you all said it deals with morality and not everything is black or white, it all has shades of grey. Each case is different and you can't follow a manual, Harry implies that at some point, and I agree completely.
HR moments were great, Harry really was enjoying himself when she declared they would miss him. And that laugh at the end!
I loved Adam, we got to know him better, his weaknesses and his resolution.
We also saw that Danny it's not the naive guy who joined the MI5, he has issues and questions the means, not that he doesn't agree but he is reluctant to do certain things.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - Tea Lady - 23-05-2010 08:15 PM
I agree that this is a great episode but I still feel uneasy about bringing the daughter into the equation. Would they really have had the daughter killed? I doubt it. Morgan could have held on. He could have said, put her to the top of the organ donation list and I will tell you all, but he didnt. I guess what I am saying is that I think Adam and Harry were bluffing and they would not have let the girl die. Could you imagine the consequences if they had? I think they could have used the daughter in a different way to get the information.
I thought Adam was showing signs of PTSD here and reminded me so much of Tom in his last days. He was actually enjoying the torture. And yes it was torture. The only time Adam seemed to buckle was when the daughter was offered up. Perhaps that's because he is a father himself.
Totally loved the Harry and Ruth scenes in this episode. Ruth does like to sink her teeth into a challenge does she not? First overt signs, IMO, that Ruth likes Harry more than a friend, boss.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - lwhite53 - 23-05-2010 11:32 PM
I was really happy with this ep, especially after 3.8 -- a good solid spooks script that deals with important questions of morality and the consequences thereof.
H/R scenes were terrific and it was certainly clear in this ep that there's more going on between them than a simple boss/employee relationship. H's subtext finally becomes overt and Ruth also shows she been paying particular attention to him (as evidenced by the "pacing" comment). I love that she challenges him with "Is there any line we don't cross?" I think she wants to make sure he really considers what using Morgan's daughter means and doesn't just go along with it because it's part of the "finance, friends and family" paradigm.
I liked Danny is this ep -- he was really uneasy about how far Adam might go to get info from Morgan and rather than stonewall, he took his concerns to Harry. He didn't say "we absolutely cannot use Morgan's daughter" but rather he wanted to be sure Harry was part of that decision. In a way, I saw him as the "conscience" of the ep.
Also liked the Adam/Fiona relationship and learning more of Adam's past. I thought Adam's "I'm going home to wash" line was a very interesting choice of phrase -- it was as if he needed to cleanse himself from what he was being forced to do, and I do think Adam really believed he was compelled to use torture tactics in order to stop an atrocity.
RE: Episode 9 Discussion [rewatch] - Nitrus - 23-05-2010 11:43 PM
If you were father, would you even think about taking that risk for a second? Morgan doesn't know these people but he knows what lengths he's gone to in the past. I don't think any parent could even contemplate taking a gamble on their child's life like that.