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+-- Forum: MI5 Operations (/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: Series 9 (/forum-29.html)
+--- Thread: Plot-holes (/thread-1504.html)
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 04-04-2011 09:07 PM
@binkie I had actually watched S9 prior to joining this forum, and prior to reading anyone else's opinions on the series. Whilst a lot of the small plot-holes weren't very noticeable, I was annoyed by the John/Lucas plot right from the off-set. I was confused by the mix of French and Chinese agents (...I still am) and the inclusion of Maya irritated me to no end. Whilst discussion of the series on this forum has probably heightened my annoyance, I was definitely aware of the plot-holes before entering any discussion about them. However, I watched S7, 8 and 9 in the space of a weekend (I didn't get much sleep xD) so that may have made me more aware of the flaws in the plot than someone who watched S9 over the course of 8 weeks.
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 04-04-2011 09:30 PM
Binkie I'll let you know when my mum finishes watching series nine. She has watched 1-8 of Spooks, has no particular love for Lucas and does not go on forums let alone the interwebs at all and I have told her nothing of the series nine storyarc. I have been wondering how she will find it?
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 04-04-2011 09:59 PM
Honestly, I just wished they hadn't dug such a big hole with this Lucas storyline.
I'm not against having characters exit, Adam left, Ros left, Jo left, Ben left, Connie left, plenty of characters that I love left and I still stayed, and I mean, when I was watching Stargate SG-1, my favorite character who was a main star from Season 1 to Season 8 exited at the end of Season 8 and I was very sad, but for the next two seasons I was still watching the show and enjoying every bit because the stories were so good and the characters didn't miss a beat. Those characters and storylines were so engaging and how the stories involved were so well done that I didn't feel like I was missing my favorite so much, I found other things to love as well.
And that was my hopes for Spooks when Series 9 first started. I knew Lucas would exit, especially with RA's schedule and then the Hobbit announcement, but such an illogical patched-up exit is not what I was expecting.
This isn't just about me saying that I'm upset because Lucas isn't in the show anymore, it's about how the story is done and if the writers give the viewers any respect. And I expected better from Spooks than to run with this illogical storyline. Especially when there are so many alternative solutions that are just as meaningful and powerful.
They could have easily drawn from the complex backstory of Lucas's history and pull out an amazing exit, but how could they write a story without any explanation?
We never really knew what this Lucas/John thing was all about, we never knew the whole point of Maya and Lucas's relationship, we never knew how John bypassed all those security measures and became Lucas, and so many more, there were just so many holes to trying and plug in this storyline that it's like trying to plug a hole with your finger when the whole dam is leaking!
And the fact that these writers didn't even bother to come up with a proper explanation and just thought this was new interesting and shock & awe, that is what really upsets me.
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 04-04-2011 10:18 PM
(04-04-2011 09:30 PM)xRuthx Wrote: Binkie I'll let you know when my mum finishes watching series nine. She has watched 1-8 of Spooks, has no particular love for Lucas and does not go on forums let alone the interwebs at all and I have told her nothing of the series nine storyarc. I have been wondering how she will find it?
Thanks, xRuthx
Apparently I'm not above using the mothers of other forum users as research subjects. Perhaps this should be a warning to anyone just dropping by!
Byatil, I will come back to your observation later when I have had some more time to think about the implications (I could possibly have worded this in a less threatening-sounding way
).
RE: Plot-holes - Nixie - 04-04-2011 11:56 PM
(04-04-2011 03:07 PM)binkie Wrote: I would be interested to know if the plotholes stood out to you, as a viewer in 'isolation', as much as they did to an audience experiencing - and discussing - them in real time. I wonder if the group experience of season 9 encouraged the identification plotholes by encouraging discussion of the continuity question. I'm not suggesting for a moment that a person watching this season on their own would have been oblivious to the plotholes (it's my assumption that this would not be the case), but I am curious about the effect of group psychology on the response to, and consideration of, them.
Hi binkie, I posted my initial reactions to S9 on the "How did you feel about season 9?" thread, after I watched S9 over about 4/5 days. Despite my best attempts to avoid all spoilers, I was aware that there was some identity crisis re Lucas, which involved the name John, prior to watching the season - but didn't know the details.
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 05-04-2011 11:57 AM
I think the plot holes only really became obvious at the end of the series when I realized that there was going to be no explanation for some of the really big holes. When discussing it during the series people had some wonderful theories on the plot and possible reasons for characters to be behaving how they were, but the writers never 'covered all the bases' and thus plot holes remained and the story incomprehensible.
RE: Plot-holes - molecatcher - 07-04-2011 11:18 AM
I've been away from the forum a few months and just thought I'd drop in to see what's new. It seems not a lot because several are still picking holes in Series 9. If every tv series was over analysed then holes would be found and that's a fact.
I've not read all posts on this thread because I haven't got the time but in case I'm the only one, want to add a positive note. I loved Series 9, thought each episode had an original, relevant and interesting plot line, the study of Harry's, Ruth's and Lucas' individual mental struggles was fascinating because the human psyche is just that. Everyone has secrets whether small or huge that get tucked away in the hope they can remain hidden. Lucas' story was about such a secret coming back to haunt him, no more, no less. I may be in a minority here as someone who just sits back to enjoy the journey, expect the unexpected and revel in the amazing drama that is Spooks but I think you will find over 5 million viewers out there do much the same as me.
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 07-04-2011 11:47 AM
(07-04-2011 11:18 AM)molecatcher Wrote: If every tv series was over analysed then holes would be found and that's a fact.
As many of us have said before, we are not trying to nitpick about everything that wasn't done right. Fictional dramas are always going to have plot holes, but when the whole central storyline is based and founded upon one giant plot hole that is never explained and quickly glossed over, the rest of those insignificant little ones that never mattered starts to become so much more clear and more irritating.
Spooks have had plenty of plot holes from all their series, but people have gotten over it because the central storyline was done well, so people accepted those little plot holes of just Ros and Lucas saving the world by themselves or the magically fast car rides from point A to point B. But when the logical foundations of an important central storyline doesn't even stand up to scrutiny and is never explained, then THAT becomes a BIG issue, and THAT makes all those little holes feel like giant leaks.
(07-04-2011 11:18 AM)molecatcher Wrote: I may be in a minority here as someone who just sits back to enjoy the journey, expect the unexpected and revel in the amazing drama that is Spooks but I think you will find over 5 million viewers out there do much the same as me.
I sit back and enjoy journeys on plenty of shows, I don't sit around and nitpick everything of a show that I watch. As a big science fiction lover, I know more than most when it comes to facing the unexpected and just go with the storyline. But what I will not accept is writers short-changing their characters so they can go out in a shock and awe storylines done for ratings and not for a good story.
You can expect the unexpected and revel in amazing drama, but there is a fine line between good unexpected drama and over-the-top-melodrama with no logical base. You cannot just toss out an idea and think it's so cool and then put no logical base or explanation, any writer should know that. Writing a good story is about exploring the emotional core and a logical foundation, a story without both is unbalanced and simply doesn't work. Lucas's story may have an interesting emotional connection, but the 180 character flip was given no strong logical foundation, how he got into MI5 was never explained, how he did a lot of things were never explained, but we are just suppose to go with it and believe that the agent who spent 8 years in Russia as a prisoner for his country, a person who would give his life for his people and his team, would in one moment become this selfish coward and bastard who would give up the lives of millions of people just to have the love of a woman from 15 years ago?
There may have been an emotional struggle, but the writers never again explained it properly just like they never bothered to explain how John Bateman was able to bypass all their securities. Richard Armitage and the other actors may have brought so much meaning and emotion to the scenes, but there is only so much an actor can do to save a story that is not properly written and explained.
There was no depth and no logic to this story, so many things never explained but we are just suppose to believe in this 180 flip from good agent to selfish weakling.
I'm sorry but even with my usual habit of just enjoy my show and come along for the ride, I cannot stand blatant character changes that is not explained. I expect to see these kind of writings on daytime soap operas, not on a great primetime drama like Spooks. It's amateur writing, and I expect better from Spooks.
And while it is nice to just sit there and enjoy everything and be happy, if we are just sitting around like mindless mules, not giving any comment or criticism, how will these writers ever improve? Wouldn't that be a great disservice that we are doing to the show as the viewers? What's the point of watching if we don't express our opinions as they are but rather just sit around and nod along like everything's fine?
If we keep letting the writers get away with whatever story they want and not be a good sounding board for them, how will they improve? How will they be able to be better at anything if we just nod and thumbs up everything they do? A good audience loves the show but also knows to criticize and critique it when it does wrong, not just go along with whatever the writers put down.
This Lucas story simply lacks the strong foundation to hold it together, and because of that crumbling foundation, it makes the whole story look full of holes. These writers have already talked in commentaries about how they didn't even bother to figure out proper explanations because they just thought this story was cool and that was what mattered. I'm sorry, but no matter what, THAT is not what a good writer does. And it's that obnoxious attitude that I will not stand for.
I came to watch Spooks for quality entertainment, I expect the best, I'm not sitting here watching writers who think that what matters for a story is to be exciting and cool rather than be planned out well with a good solid explanation. And if this is where Spooks wants to go, then I will not go with it.
And finally, I don't see why I should conform to the views of 5 million other people just because they think one way. I am my own person with my own mind. This series lacked the quality of a great character arc and as a writer myself, I will always be disappointed in what they chose to do with the story when there are so many other viable and equally intelligent solutions.
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-04-2011 12:04 PM
^To everything you just wrote word.
Also, if you loved series nine, stay away from the plot holes thread and you won't have to read opinions that aren't yours. Plenty of viewers disliked the Lucas storyline. Yes. Even those who didn't like Lucas that much. Go read the varied amazon reviews. People can still like aspects of series nine and dislike Jucas. Heck I am one of them.
Jucas was bad writing. I will point that out till I am blue in the face because I do not think writers should have carte blanche to quote Ros and I don't want a storyline like that to be done again because then I would be forced to kiss goodbye to Spooks and I don't want that. I want the show to improve as it has done in the past and this thread is about people having a space to express that.
And finally, the last I heard it was called freedom of speech. Philip Pullman had some wise words on that. I shall say no more
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 07-04-2011 12:31 PM
The individual "threat-of-the-week" plots in S9 were brilliant. The character plot-arcs were not.