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+--- Thread: Plot-holes (/thread-1504.html)
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 23-01-2011 01:52 AM
Why the Dakar Embassy on Harry's watch was that not 6's job?
How was Vaughan able to reach Lucas when his mobile number etc., should have secure.
Why was Vaughan's file secured with a high level access code at MI5
If Vaughan was an informer for 5 how come Lucas didn't know about him
RE: Plot-holes - NightOwl - 23-01-2011 02:46 AM
(22-01-2011 03:59 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:(22-01-2011 03:37 PM)penfold Wrote:(21-01-2011 06:20 PM)NightOwl Wrote: Why didn't Home Secretary Ash have servants or security guards, or at least security cameras, around that big house?
If you mean Home Secretary Blake [!] he was no longer Home Secretary, nor was he even an MP after being discovered as a leading light of Nightingale *, so the protection would have been withdrawn.
[* That's another plot hole in my book - totally out of left field and completely unbelievable.]
I wondered about the absence of security cameras too!
I assumed there was security cameras which is why Harry did not drive a car up to the front of the house even though it was raining. So his number plate would not be filmed and he had his umbrella up, to hide his face. There would not have been camera's inside the house, but probably at the front gate and to the front and back of the house.
As to why there was nobody else in the house, surely that is because Harry went there to kill him and probably waited to get Blake on his own. Harry was hardly going to turn up by chance with a bottle of poisoned whiskey when there were cooks, and servants running all over the place. Give Harry some credit.
I can't see there are any plot holes there at all.
I wasn't referring specifically government security just that given that Blake (Thank you, I had a bout of name confusion.) appears to be wealthy I'd assume that he would have some type of security to protect his family and belongings.
As for the servants, certainly Harry wouldn't want anyone around, but is it likely that no servants would be around at all, and how could Harry know it? And if Harry was using his umbrella to shield his face from cameras how could he have known when he made his plan that it would be raining on the day neither family nor staff would be there?
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011 06:58 AM
I would certainly like to see how the feature on the DVD "Downfall of Lucas North" address what made them decide to go with this plot-hole filled storyline, I like to see how they try to attempt to explain this mess. Sure would be interesting.
Why did that chinese hit squad have Lucas's picture? Did they know if he was Lucas or he was John?
How in the hell that not even one agency in the entire intelligence community know about Lucas's so carefully hidden past? And if no one knew and it was hidden so well, then how the hell did Beth find it in under 5 minutes?
Why the hell did the writers choose to make every intelligence agency into a moron?
How did MI5 just let a guy walk into an interview without checking who he is?
Why did no one even recognize that our Lucas isn't the real Lucas? Surely SOMEONE must have seen the real Lucas North's picture!
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 23-01-2011 07:24 PM
Another thing I don't understand - Both the CIA and FSB appear to have files on "Lucas North", so surely they could have found some inconsistencies in the files when comparing them to "John Bateman"?
I don't exactly remember, so could someone explain how Beth was able to find the link between Lucas and John? I know it was something to do with a club of some sort, but how did she make the connection? Because if she made the connection fairly easily, it seems odd that the FSB/CIA wouldn't have done (if we completely ignore the fact that MI5 apparently had no idea what Lucas looked like
)(22-01-2011 07:05 PM)HellsBells Wrote: Who were the Chinese talking in french to?
This has been puzzling me too... I'm almost certain they were speaking French (unless it was a VERY specific Chinese dialect) yet there doesn't seem to be any obvious link to the French (unless they were involved in Dakar, but I don't know why that would be of any relevance to the Chinese when they're already using Vaughn)? I'll have to wait for the S9 DVD release so I can see what the subtitles say
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011 09:13 PM
(23-01-2011 07:24 PM)Byatil Wrote: Another thing I don't understand - Both the CIA and FSB appear to have files on "Lucas North", so surely they could have found some inconsistencies in the files when comparing them to "John Bateman"?
Well considering 8 years of torture apparently didn't even make Lucas reveal the whole John thing, I'd say FSB fails at interrogation.
Clearly every intelligence agency is an idiot from the way the writers are writing this story.
(23-01-2011 07:24 PM)Byatil Wrote: I don't exactly remember, so could someone explain how Beth was able to find the link between Lucas and John? I know it was something to do with a club of some sort, but how did she make the connection? Because if she made the connection fairly easily, it seems odd that the FSB/CIA wouldn't have done (if we completely ignore the fact that MI5 apparently had no idea what Lucas looked like
Harry told Beth to search for any match to Lucas North in Dakar since he was surprised to learn that Lucas had been in Dakar around the time of the embassy bombing. Beth found a profile of Lucas North in the files of this sports club in Dakar, she saw the picture was not our Lucas but the signature on the form says Lucas North. That's how she notices that something was not right.
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 23-01-2011 09:36 PM
(23-01-2011 09:13 PM)BravoNine Wrote:(23-01-2011 07:24 PM)Byatil Wrote: I don't exactly remember, so could someone explain how Beth was able to find the link between Lucas and John? I know it was something to do with a club of some sort, but how did she make the connection? Because if she made the connection fairly easily, it seems odd that the FSB/CIA wouldn't have done (if we completely ignore the fact that MI5 apparently had no idea what Lucas looked like
Harry told Beth to search for any match to Lucas North in Dakar since he was surprised to learn that Lucas had been in Dakar around the time of the embassy bombing. Beth found a profile of Lucas North in the files of this sports club in Dakar, she saw the picture was not our Lucas but the signature on the form says Lucas North. That's how she notices that something was not right.
Ahh, thanks for explaining! It does seem odd that nothing would have been noted regarding John's return to England using the real Lucas' passport though? The two men look completely different, so how did John manage to fool passport control? Obviously Vaughn would have had 'connections' but would he have been able to have a passport forged that easily? Or was security just incredibly lax in '95?
Oh, and I'd just like to point out the utter irony of Lucas' "Gnothi Seauton" tatt!
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011 10:04 PM
(23-01-2011 09:36 PM)Byatil Wrote: Ahh, thanks for explaining! It does seem odd that nothing would have been noted regarding John's return to England using the real Lucas' passport though? The two men look completely different, so how did John manage to fool passport control? Obviously Vaughn would have had 'connections' but would he have been able to have a passport forged that easily? Or was security just incredibly lax in '95?
Getting through customs with fake passports aren't really the big issue here, it can happen.
The big issue here is how did Lucas join MI5? Yes I know the real Lucas North had already sent in his application and his background checks had been verified, but how the MI5 not know the real Lucas North was in Dakar? If he had sent in his app, then MI5 would have kept an eye on him as they did on all recruits. And then Harry would know that Lucas was in Dakar and not been surprised when our Lucas told him about being in Dakar. So why wasn't that in his report and why did MI5 not keep an eye on him?
And just why didn't anyone recognize that our Lucas looks nothing like the real Lucas North? Am I to believe that he just walked into an interview without anyone realizing he's not the real guy? Or that no one in MI5 saw the real Lucas North's picture??
Security at MI5 was really that bad that a person can just walk in a pretend to be someone else?
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 23-01-2011 10:25 PM
I love this thread!
In fact the only extra that could make me buy the S9 DVDs would be "Explanation of plotholes". But then I realise it would probably be longer than all of the 8 episodes together.
Hopefully I'll find the time this week to participate, I'm pretty sure I still have some open questions on my plotholes list.
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 23-01-2011 11:14 PM
(23-01-2011 10:04 PM)BravoNine Wrote: Getting through customs with fake passports aren't really the big issue here, it can happen.
I realise it can happen, it just seems extremely unlikely. Surely when the real Lucas was found dead it would have been discovered that his passport was missing? His identity would surely have been confirmed and his family/friends notified, unless I'm forgetting something crucial like Vaughn managing to get rid of the body and completely remove any trace of the real Lucas' life
(23-01-2011 10:04 PM)BravoNine Wrote: The big issue here is how did Lucas join MI5? Yes I know the real Lucas North had already sent in his application and his background checks had been verified, but how the MI5 not know the real Lucas North was in Dakar? If he had sent in his app, then MI5 would have kept an eye on him as they did on all recruits. And then Harry would know that Lucas was in Dakar and not been surprised when our Lucas told him about being in Dakar. So why wasn't that in his report and why did MI5 not keep an eye on him?
This is precisely what I can't get my head around! It just seems utterly unbelievable that someone could be fully vetted for MI5 without anyone ever seeing what they looked like?! Absolutely ridiculous.
Your point about Lucas being under surveillance is a good one, especially as we are led to believe that Harry and Lucas worked together pre-stint-in-Russia. Surely Harry would have been involved in the recruitment process in the final stages, if not earlier?
My memory of S9 is deplorable, so if someone knows why the real Lucas was in Dakar in the first place I'd be interested to find out. Was he just on Holiday?
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011 11:23 PM
(23-01-2011 11:14 PM)Byatil Wrote: I realise it can happen, it just seems extremely unlikely. Surely when the real Lucas was found dead it would have been discovered that his passport was missing? His identity would surely have been confirmed and his family/friends notified, unless I'm forgetting something crucial like Vaughn managing to get rid of the body and completely remove any trace of the real Lucas' life
This part I can forgive, it is more than likely that Vaughn and Lucas/John hid away the real Lucas North's body so that no one ever find him. And since we were never told of Lucas's family relations, it could be that he and his family don't speak or they're all dead, and we will probably never find that out.
(23-01-2011 11:14 PM)Byatil Wrote: Your point about Lucas being under surveillance is a good one, especially as we are led to believe that Harry and Lucas worked together pre-stint-in-Russia. Surely Harry would have been involved in the recruitment process in the final stages, if not earlier?
Another point that the writers will probably never focus on......
They made it seem like Harry may have had a part in Lucas's recruitment, but again, they never explicitly stated that so we don't know how Lucas was recruited and what happened....they left that as vague as they can....a shame too since it would have made a great story....
(23-01-2011 11:14 PM)Byatil Wrote: My memory of S9 is deplorable, so if someone knows why the real Lucas was in Dakar in the first place I'd be interested to find out. Was he just on Holiday?
The real Lucas North was in Dakar because after he sent in his app, he wanted some experience and learning, and since he heard that Dakar was a good gathering place for spies and all that intelligence gathering stuff, he wanted to get in on some of the action and see what it was like.