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+--- Thread: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) (/thread-1474.html)
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - loladom - 23-10-2011 02:08 PM
Whatever happens tonight, Harry Pearce is a legend and we will always have him to revisit - that's the beauty of fiction.
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - A Cousin - 25-10-2011 05:40 PM
As I start to pick 10.6 apart (in a good way
), I have been thinking about the following and would like to know what you think.The code-names Tourmaline and Peregrine. They say a lot, don't they?
Tourmaline is a semi-precious stone that comes in a lot of different colors. Which, of course, turned out to be the case with Elena.
Of course a peregrine is a bird of prey. Turns out Harry was not doing the preying. I wonder if the code-name gave him a false sense of power? And us a false sense of the truth of the matter?
Which leads me to wonder if they were assigned by MI-5 or the KGB? I believe that Sasha mentions finding Harry's MI-5 code-name? Did Ilya have a codename too?
Also, I have been thinking about Harry as the Tragic Hero. (Yeah, that again!
) I have read a couple of mentions of viewers who felt emotionally manipulated by the tragedy of Harry. I did not. At all. In fact, I think that was the point, and a successful one too.So a couple of questions based on some of Aristotle's ideas in Poetics about what makes a successful tragedy. (Hey! Lookee here - maybe I didn't waste that $40,000 spent on drama school!
)Tragic hero's are supposed to experience anagnorisis, some sort of revelation and/or recognition about human fate and destiny (and the will of the gods in ancient times.) Aristotle quite nicely terms this sort of recognition "a change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love or hate." Do you think Harry experienced this and why?
Aristotle mentions that a tragedy should end in catharsis or purification, whether he meant for the character or the viewer is still debated. But most accept that it could be for either or both. I absolutely experienced a catharsis. Did Harry?
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - nimax1 - 25-10-2011 06:19 PM
(25-10-2011 05:40 PM)A Cousin Wrote: As I start to pick 10.6 apart (in a good way
The code-names Tourmaline and Peregrine. They say a lot, don't they?
Tourmaline is a semi-precious stone that comes in a lot of different colors. Which, of course, turned out to be the case with Elena.
Of course a peregrine is a bird of prey. Turns out Harry was not doing the preying. I wonder if the code-name gave him a false sense of power? And us a false sense of the truth of the matter?
Which leads me to wonder if they were assigned by MI-5 or the KGB? I believe that Sasha mentions finding Harry's MI-5 code-name? Did Ilya have a codename too?
Also, I have been thinking about Harry as the Tragic Hero. (Yeah, that again!
So a couple of questions based on some of Aristotle's ideas in Poetics about what makes a successful tragedy. (Hey! Lookee here - maybe I didn't waste that $40,000 spent on drama school!
Tragic hero's are supposed to experience anagnorisis, some sort of revelation and/or recognition about human fate and destiny (and the will of the gods in ancient times.) Aristotle quite nicely terms this sort of recognition "a change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love or hate." Do you think Harry experienced this and why?
Aristotle mentions that a tragedy should end in catharsis or purification, whether he meant for the character or the viewer is still debated. But most accept that it could be for either or both. I absolutely experienced a catharsis. Did Harry?
Ah Cousin!
Actually, I too am a cousin...and a reader of both Aristotle and Nietzsche on the subject of tragedy being a veteran of numerous classroom hours dealing with the same. This whole series 10 story arc had me thinking of tragedy,[i] the Poetics, The Birth of Tragedy. The Greeks used tragedy as a catharsis for us - They went to the theatre to look at the great man (or woman) - the over the top figure - who was so far away from the life we mortals live - and then they showed us how they always reaped a cruel fate from what they had (usually) unknowingly sowed in the past. Did Harry learn from this? The character, Harry, is trying to survive his own fate, I think. I don't know what he learns from this except that he must go on. One's life must go on - even after tragedy, even after brutal loss. I think that is the point of the trip to the house they might have shared. He wants to give it all up but life, his life, his duty doesn't let him do that.
But, there is no redemption for him because the fates will not let that happen. An inexorable force has acting upon him coming back to him from his own darkness. And in viewing this for Harry we are to try to make sense of our own life through the catharsis. Amazing to me that a television show can do this, but this entire series did it.
All of them, poor Ruth, as well, were spinning to their tragic conclusion, intertwining with the fated tragedies of the persons around them.
The deluded among them, symbolised by Ilya in the tortoise scene with Harry. think they can avoid the fates. Erin thinks she can had a life and "Do this." Even Harry, for a short moment thinks Ruth, "No, you must live there...It would be your crowning achievement." and he, "After this, I am going to stand down.." can avoid it. And in the end none of them can. They are all destroyed by the sins of their past. And the catharsis is for us not for them in the best tradition of the Greeks. You can almost hear the chorus around them.
I, too, have had a catharsis, so much that I have found it hard to think of anything else since Sunday night.
"We were never meant to have those things..." Not in the security services; not in Spooks and maybe not even in life. For me this was the bottom line of the show. I think that Spooks shows us a world in which these people stand on the wall so that the rest of us can have those things. And for me this is why it is fitting that Harry, so sad, so tragic, so brave and stalwart, is left at his desk giving us that last reassurance, "Harry Pearce."
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - Gillymac - 25-10-2011 06:50 PM
What an amazing post!
My answer to both questions is yes - Harry's moment of anagnorisis came as Ruth lay dying in his arms, the change that came over the man as he looked at her blood on his right hand and realised that she was slipping away from him, and his devastation when she did, was powerfully played. And in those few minutes we saw the mask slip, from commanding officer with full control of his emotions, to raw humanity. We continued this theme with his visit to the house. As painful as he knew this would be, he needed to see what Ruth had seen, to fully understand. In the event, this was unbearable for him, and, once again, his armour was penetrated.
Harry's catharsis (from my point of view anyway) comes in three stages. First, he avenges her (and what better avenging angel than Tom Quinn, with whom they had shared history?). Second, He honours her (and all the other fallen spooks) by visiting the memorial and thirdly, finally and most important of all, he steels himself to return to the grid, partially because that is what she would have wanted in the circumstances, but also because ultimately that is who he is. Again, incredible playing by PF - Letting the phone ring, the look of doubt in his eyes replaced with the glint of the old inner fire and the way he growled his name into the receiver. Just masterly.
Thank you again for the post!
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - Silktie - 26-10-2011 08:55 AM
Great discussion. I'll pretend I understand what you're talking about and add my two cents.
(25-10-2011 05:40 PM)A Cousin Wrote: Also, I have been thinking about Harry as the Tragic Hero. (Yeah, that again!
So a couple of questions based on some of Aristotle's ideas in Poetics about what makes a successful tragedy. (Hey! Lookee here - maybe I didn't waste that $40,000 spent on drama school!
Tragic hero's are supposed to experience anagnorisis, some sort of revelation and/or recognition about human fate and destiny (and the will of the gods in ancient times.) Aristotle quite nicely terms this sort of recognition "a change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love or hate." Do you think Harry experienced this and why?
I think Harry does experience this. Last season and this season we saw a man fed-up with what the job was asking of him, dreaming of leaving it behind and settling down with Ruth (the proposal, and his repeated proclamations that he's going to resign.) Yet every time he gets drawn back in, or is forced back in, whether by Ruth's refusal to marry him, a national crisis or his past coming back to haunt him. And here, in this final episode, he is at that point again, and for once it seems he will finally get his wish to settle down with Ruth, as she is finally ready to accept him for all that he is, no matter what he's done. Her unconditional support in this episode must have felt like the ultimate freedom, especially linked to her request that he leave the Service and be with her.
But then fate intervenes, and she dies, and her last words to him are that they were never meant to have those normal things. Even after her death he still harbours the illusion of leaving the job behind and going to live in 'her' cottage, but when he stands there in it he realises how empty it would be to do this when she is no longer there, and the truth of her statement that they were never meant to have this hits home. He knows it to be true, and that's his anagnorisis.
Quote: Aristotle mentions that a tragedy should end in catharsis or purification, whether he meant for the character or the viewer is still debated. But most accept that it could be for either or both. I absolutely experienced a catharsis. Did Harry?
Once again, I think he did. By the time he answers that phone, he has made his peace with the fact that this is what he was always meant to do. His catharsis, for me, was losing the doubts he harboured about staying in the job. He is once again fully committed to it.
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - beatrice4ruth - 26-10-2011 03:58 PM
Why would Harry want to retire to a house that Ruth had not even bought? The only logical place for him to go back was the Grid, where he and Ruth had shared common convictions and true love.
I was bothered by the portrayal of Harry as a “dupe” of Elena for 30 years and the increasing unraveling of his decision making in series 9 and 10. At least Kudos allowed him to remain an honorable man till the end and to never cross the line the way Elena did.
Harry did want to retire, not because of Ruth, but because he was burned out and was making serious mistakes of judgment. As he said to Ruth, he knew it was time for him to retire. He will go on working stoically and fully committed. However, will he become again his former self, ready to fight with a clear head those bent on destroying the realm?
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - Gillymac - 26-10-2011 06:16 PM
(26-10-2011 03:58 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: Harry did want to retire, not because of Ruth, but because he was burned out and was making serious mistakes of judgment.
Yes, but remember, he expressed this wish BEFORE he discovered that the Elena/Sasha secret he had carried in his heart for 30 years and had been eating him up inside was exposed as a LIE. Ruth set him free from his guilt regarding this, when she answered Elena's question; "He's given more than I ever thought possible". Ruth FORGAVE Harry, thus allowing Harry to forgive himself and once again believe in the career he has dedicated his life to.
She also absolved him of his guilt, regarding herself (and presumably George & Nico too) on the clifftop, but remember that her offer had an important caveat; "leave the service - with me". I.E. Don't leave the service without me. Do you honestly believe Ruth would have wanted Harry cut adrift from the only life he'd ever known, his friends, his colleagues, the only support network he has, to wander the earth in impotent grief? I certainly don't and I'm not even a particular Ruth fan, but I do think better of her than that.
Someone on twitter called her "Ruth the truth" which made me laugh
. But it's a fair point actually, in terms of cornerstones of character. Ruth always tells the truth. I know a lot of people are down on the writers, but perhaps it's worth paying attention to the words they've put into the characters mouths here. "Ruth the truth" has never been more worthy of that nickname when she says; "Harry, we were never meant to have any of those things". And with that, she ultimately sets Harry free to grieve, re-group and get back to business. Dammit, she is practically ordering him to!*Last paragraph moved to the S10Ep6 thread, where it was more relevant*
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - novun - 26-10-2011 11:06 PM
(26-10-2011 06:16 PM)Gillymac Wrote: "Ruth the truth" has never been more worthy of that nickname when she says; "Harry, we were never meant to have any of those things". And with that, she ultimately sets Harry free to grieve, re-group and get back to business. Dammit, she is practically ordering him to!
Thank you for this. I watched it just yesterday and my initial reaction was that it felt like a rebuke and I couldn't understand why Ruth would say such a thing to Harry knowing these would probably be her last words. In this context, it makes much more sense, is very much in character, and makes the end a little more palatable for me.
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - Silktie - 27-10-2011 06:10 AM
I am also thankful they gave us a bit of badass Harry in the final episode. I loved that scene where he is smacking Sasha around and threatening to shoot him. His "You held a gun in my face earlier, boy, how does it feel, hmmm?" made me want to cheer.
The scene juxtaposes brilliantly with the one earlier in the episode when he and Sasha both still think Harry is his father, and for a moment Harry looks like he wants to hug him, but they both pull back.
RE: [spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Return of the Jedi (#3) - Sparky - 27-10-2011 06:32 AM
(26-10-2011 06:16 PM)Gillymac Wrote:(26-10-2011 03:58 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: Harry did want to retire, not because of Ruth, but because he was burned out and was making serious mistakes of judgment.
Yes, but remember, he expressed this wish BEFORE he discovered that the Elena/Sasha secret he had carried in his heart for 30 years and had been eating him up inside was exposed as a LIE. Ruth set him free from his guilt regarding this, when she answered Elena's question; "He's given more than I ever thought possible". Ruth FORGAVE Harry, thus allowing Harry to forgive himself and once again believe in the career he has dedicated his life to.
She also absolved him of his guilt, regarding herself (and presumably George & Nico too) on the clifftop, but remember that her offer had an important caveat; "leave the service - with me". I.E. Don't leave the service without me. Do you honestly believe Ruth would have wanted Harry cut adrift from the only life he'd ever known, his friends, his colleagues, the only support network he has, to wander the earth in impotent grief? I certainly don't and I'm not even a particular Ruth fan, but I do think better of her than that.
Someone on twitter called her "Ruth the truth" which made me laugh
*Last paragraph moved to the S10Ep6 thread, where it was more relevant*
Some excellent points there. I hadn't really looked at the scenes in that context but they really make sense, especially the stuff around Ruth wanting that for him. Even after the first viewing when I was watching through blurred vision it made complete sense for me for Harry to go back to the Grid. Yes, in another ending I think he'd have been happy with Ruth and leaving the service with her and forging a life away from MI5 together; but lets not forget, during his 'time off' over the Albany affair he was so bored he 'nearly took up gardening'! He needs a purpose and now that Ruth has gone, MI5 and serving the country is what he has left!