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Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - Printable Version

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RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - JHyde - 26-04-2010 11:43 AM

I think it was as much a test for Sam as it was for Ruth. The job they all do is about judgement, and I think Sam showed poor judgement in this case. I think part of this was Harry testing Sam to see where her loyalties lay. And in this case, I think Sam should have stepped in and said to Ruth 'No more' before it escalated to where it did.

Plus, I think Sam was flattered being asked to do it. She felt 'real', as a Spook.

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - HellsBells - 26-04-2010 01:35 PM

I think the fact Harry knew what Ruth was doing highlighted the fact that there is nothing secret in their personal lives, that they are being watched all the time. I don't think Sam would have had much choice but to spy on Ruth, I sure Harry would have made that absolutely clear to her.
I think Zoe was correct when she said they were nowhere near their rights with regard to killing the scientist, even though it was the right decision.

Best bit of the episode was seeing what they got up to at the weekend. Who would have thought of Colin as a marksman !

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - A Cousin - 26-04-2010 04:55 PM

Wow! Such thoughtful well-worded replies here. Not that I expected anything less. I am still in the thinking it all out stages here. Since I have never met a Spooks episode I haven't liked on some level I cannot comment on that. However, I do have a couple of questions and attendant comments:

re: Ruth Plot - What was Harry's last line? After Ruth says that they "can't let that kind of thing to get in the way of work." Does he say, "Oh, yes we can?" The first time I watched this ep., I was so involved in the Zoe/Danny and Zoe/Will plots that the Ruth plot, while I "got it" and how it fit into the general theme, it just didn't stand out to me. Upon second viewing and fully aware of the future through 5.5, I still thought it too early. I think he's testing/training both Sam and Ruth. In Harry's defense, maybe he could have just nipped it in the bud with Ruth directly, but a lesson learned is never better learned than when it is learned the hard way - cold hard experience. I question his methods and motives, but not in any other way than as boss-employee.

re:Harry/Sam/Malcolm spying on Ruth. Who informed who? Did Harry find out and get Sam involved or did Sam report Ruth to Harry? If the former, Sam really doesn't have much choice. If the later, shame on Sam! And when did Malcolm get involved and by whom? He clearly knew something right at the top since he was the one who brought Ruth the files. Not sure he could have done that w/out Harry's authorization? Maybe Malcolm reported Ruth? Its not very clear. I'm still working this one out.

re: Danny and the State sponsored assassination. This actually jumped right out on me upon my first viewing but I haven't jumped in until now b/c I wanted to see what all of you had to say first.
Spoiler: show
For me this is the beginning of the end for Danny - long before the Persephone episode.
I am with the folks that state sponsored assassination is very different than killing in the line of duty if only b/c, at least in this case, it was the first option. Killing in the line of duty is usually a last resort situation or at least in self defense. Harry and Adam clearly knew what they were going to ask Zoe and Danny to do once they were on the ferry.

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - JHyde - 26-04-2010 06:04 PM

Great post, A Cousin - and great to have someone new joining the re-watch team!

On the Malcolm front, I'm not sure. You don't want to suspect that Harry set Malcolm up to do all that with both of them, but it's unclear.

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - lwhite53 - 26-04-2010 07:27 PM

I'd bet Ruth asked Malcolm to get her the transcripts and Malcolm obliged, even though it was against regs
Spoiler: show
(Malcolm does have a renegade streak now and then, like when he yelled at Harry after Colin's death)
. If Harry had been involved, Malcolm would have warned Ruth. And how did the whole thing start -- good question? That's never really been made clear although I think H must have been wondering what in the world R was doing in the listening booth for so long and tasked Sam to find out for him.

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - Silktie - 27-04-2010 12:17 PM

Harry does seem to know everything that's going on, I'm beginning to suspect he has planted secret cameras all over the Grid to keep an eye on his officers... Anyway, my impression is that Harry became aware something was up with Ruth and became concerned that she was taking classified stuff home, and tasked Sam to find out whether anything was going on that was against regulations. So yeah, Sam probably didn't have a choice initially, but my problem with her actions is that she then actively encouraged Ruth to pursue something whilst she knew Harry was keeping a close eye on things and that Ruth might get in trouble. And she never warned Ruth, who ended up
Spoiler: show
getting a disciplinary hearing from Harry over the incident, as we learn from Harry's Diary.


RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - HellsBells - 27-04-2010 01:03 PM

I agree with you Silktie, I can't understand why Sam encourages Ruth. If Harry told her to report to him then she didn't have much choice but she should not have encouraged Ruth the way she did.
So was Harry pushing Ruth into this situation just so Ruth would learn the hard way as A Cousin suggested.

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - A Cousin - 27-04-2010 01:23 PM

Silktie - Harry's Diary? Tell me more please.

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - Silktie - 27-04-2010 03:15 PM

Where's almh when you need her? Tongue It's a book published by Kudos (I think?) that provides Harry's diary since from when he started in the service. Well worth the money, you can get it through our Spooks forum shop from Amazon. There's also a forum thread about the book that you can visit to see whether you'd be interested in the General discussion section.

Did Harry allow Ruth to go as far as she did to teach her a lesson? I don't know, possibly. Or maybe he was aware deep down that his problem with her actions were not purely professional, and was afraid other people, or even Ruth herself might notice if he took immediate action.

RE: Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch] - lwhite53 - 27-04-2010 08:49 PM

I don't believe Harry was involved in Ruth's "date" with Fortescue -- that was all Sam, I think. Sam got excited about Ruth's lunch and R's description of F and urged her on. I don't really think Sam was being malicious, she just wasn't thinking (as someone said earlier, she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer). And Malcolm helping out was just Malcolm being nice. If M had had any idea Harry was onto Ruth, he would have gone in the other direction . . . fast!