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RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - Adam Carter - 02-11-2010 03:16 AM
(02-11-2010 01:20 AM)NightOwl Wrote: That's my big complaint with this story. If nothing we've been told about Lucas is real, why should I believe that anything about any of the characters is real? In which case, why I should I care about them or be interested in them? The writers have sabotaged any development of other (including future) characters. It doesn't matter who Beth is or Dmitri or Tariq or anyone else. I'll never believe anything I "learn" about them. I'll never trust them so I'll never have any reason to be surprised by anything they do.
While I see where you're coming from, you have to keep in mind that Lucas's loyalty has been questioned since day one. Obviously, our original suspicion concerned his relationship with the Russians, but he has always had a dark cloud hovering over him.
Factor in his disastrous relationship with Sarah, and I don't see this Albany/John circumstance as a drastic out-of-character leap. It's sudden, sure. But I wouldn't peg any other Spooks character a potential traitor. And that was Lucas's M.O. from the very start.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - theeyeshaveit - 02-11-2010 04:05 AM
(02-11-2010 12:23 AM)binkie Wrote:(02-11-2010 12:06 AM)clamp Wrote:(01-11-2010 11:25 PM)binkie Wrote: Hello! I am de-lurking to post this, and I'm almost certainly wrong (or clutching desperately at straws!): is it possible that Lucas in in fact the Albany file? I admit I have no well-thought-out theory to back this up. But it could be made to fit with the Chinese cell in 9.4 having the still-unexplained picture of him.
I think it's interesting that so much of John's backstory was told / suggested to him by Vaughan, even down to the chilling (and brilliant) part about being a killer waking up. There is possibly something here to underline the fact that Lucas really has not been in control of his own life for a very long time.
Feel free to destroy this mini-theory at will!
I think you are correct to be frank...
'but your invaluable to me....' Harry pierce
Its highly plausable.
Thank youI know nobody watches Spooks for the high level of consistency on offer(!), but I do have a couple of problems with the idea that John could just get on with being Lucas simply because he had shared a bit of chit-chat over a *ahem* hand rolled cigarette.
Problem #1 really has to do with the common sense of killer!bomber!John being able to pass himself off, in a wide-ranging and rigorous interview with MI5 recruitment personnel trained to unpick psychological flaws, as someone who had already passed all the appropriate background checks. I can't imagine the final interview stage for the security service is as simple as turning up, confirming the name on your passport, and saying: "I've always wanted to be a spy."
Problem #2 relates to Lucas' survival in prison. I accept the superfically convincing argument that he tolerated what happend to to him as a kind of punishment for a different crime. However, I do not accept the idea that feckless, opportunistic John would have been capable of maintaining the persona of Lucas while someone as clever and manipulative as Oleg Darshavin got to "know every inch of [his] mind." I'm sure this can all be hand-waved. But I really hope it won't be.
Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong place. Perhaps it belongs on the Lucas thread?
Like your point 2 - It is unbelievable to think his alter ego is unknown to anyone but Vaughn and John after all this time despite his involvement with two secret services.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - BravoNine - 02-11-2010 05:23 AM
After calming down and finally taking in the episode, this is what I think as of right now by Episode 7:
I'm really beginning to think that Lucas, or rather John, is mentally unstable. Like Vaughn said, he's a killer who went to sleep and dreamed that he was a hero when he became Lucas, he became so immersed into that life and that he forgot the darkness and carried on only the goodness, and when Vaughn came back with that stupid freakin' suitcase, John was awoken and that monstrosity and darkness returned and slowly took over everything that was good about Lucas. A monster was unleashed, a man who is so ruthless and unstable and cold that he's basically a psychopath hell bent on getting what he wants.
On one hand, I could call this storyline ingenious, one of the best storylines I have seen on Spooks in the last few years, we have never had an agent whose life became this much of mess that who he really is inside isn't even the truth. We've never had an agent who turned out to be a psychopath who was hiding inside waiting to be unleashed. It's such a drastic change, it's terrifying, and yet somehow frighteningly true to real life.
On the other hand, I shout, yell, scream, shriek at the atrocities that's being heaped onto the Lucas North that I love with all my heart and soul and I hate hate hate the writers for doing this to Lucas, for doing this to me because I still haven't stopped crying!! I hate this because my heart is still asking why? I'm still reeling and trying to understand that the man for TWO series that I have watched was just one big lie, that he wasn't real, that he was just a dream of a person who didn't exist except in somebody's head. It hurts so bad, it hurts so deep in my soul, that gut-wrenching sickness because I never thought I could ever see that much coldness behind Lucas's once so compassionate blue eyes.
You have no idea how much my heart broke or how hard I cried when John finally uttered the words "Lucas North is dead", it was like a dagger straight into my heart and my soul. Everything I ever held onto, everything I ever believed and loved about Lucas North, it's just a dream, just a story, it was never real, and my heart is still so desperately trying to hold onto any shred of hope and trying to pick up the broken pieces.
There is a part of me still hoping, that somehow, some way, the Lucas-persona that has now been suppressed and pushed aside can find a way to fight through the darkness of John, that somehow after being Lucas North for the last 15 years that a part of him remained in John, that somehow the Lucas-persona can break through at the end and save everyone. You don't live somebody's life for 15 years and not have something remain behind. You don't fighting alongside and risk your life for your people and your team for 15 years and not have it leave a mark. You don't carry that loyalty, bravery, and selflessness for 15 years and not have something strike deep into your soul. I have to believe that a part of Lucas remained inside John, and I have to believe that somehow, the Lucas North inside his soul will find a way to fight back, find a way to end the danger to the team that he tried so hard to protect. John may have said that Lucas North is dead, but I am hoping and wishing with everything in me that a part of Lucas is still in there somehow and that he's gonna come through one last time for the team he loves.
Ruth was right about something, this job leaves you cold and numb inside. One day you'll wake up and none of the darkness of this job will be a shock or a surprise, one day people will die around you and you just keep picking it up and moving along like nothing happened, one day your own humanity will come into question because you're simply just always fine. This job eats you up inside until you're dry.
Tom Quinn was lucky in a lot of ways. He got out. He got out before he had to watch his friends fall prey to this dark world, before he had to watch Danny executed in cold blood, Zoe shipped away into hiding, Colin hanged by our own people, Adam killed in car bomb, and Lucas revealed to be this dark cold psychopath that no one would have ever predicated he would be. One should be envious of Tom Quinn, he got the normal life, and what his friends got was suffering, darkness, torment, and death.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - theeyeshaveit - 02-11-2010 05:34 AM
I could pick on a million things that puzzle me but after this episode but I will only speak of my two primary concerns because they are the premise for everything.
1. Lucas and Maya
We are told again this week, Lucas is doing it for Maya, and while he talks about passion to Vaughn, when Lucas and Maya together there is no passion written into their scenes. Lucas and Maya are such a strange couple in love, I am beginning to feel it is intentional. This week the writers never even wrote any moment in the rescue scene to indicate it was anything other than the rescue of any person of interest. Why did they not give them some passionate words of support or comfort while he uncuffs her, no are you ok, don't be scared, nothing, she could have been any hostage he was freeing. It does not have to be soppy, but if their love is the motivator for Lucas they needed to include something lover like in that scene. Lucas could stand and listen to Vaughn for a couple of minutes so why not a moment of care and reassurance with the love of his life. Weird. Lucas says two things to her 'Did he hurt you?' from the stairs. Maya - go outside and wait for me there as he frees her. She says almost nothing and seems more worried about Vaughn's welfare. Lovers - ha!
2. Why Lucas chose this path.
Despite the severity of what John did, the unviable path he chose when Vaughn turned up became even more ridiculous this week when Lucas confirmed my theory he thought his 15 years service and 8 years in prison could be considered as part atonement for what he did.
I am less sold on those premises than ever, let alone other problems people have raised.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - femaleBertieWooster - 02-11-2010 05:35 AM
I'm with Binkie. Awesome analysis, especially about Lucas being the Albany file. He, that is John or Lucas is highly suggestible, with Vaughn pulling the strings. We in no way should take all the flashbacks to be real at this point.
Something important, we didn't see Maya in the flashbacks. She met him as John, that is before he detonated the bomb and killed the real Lucas North and took his identity. Edit for clarity--If he did that stuff. Also, Vaughn said "I gave her to you" or something like that. Another suggestion?
There's still a way out for Lucas, our Lucas that is.
And have to put in a good word for Ruth, if someone that huge wants to kill you, you want to make sure they're dead. She was very concerned and encouraging to Deery.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - age1021 - 02-11-2010 06:08 AM
I don't have any profound revelations to offer, but I would like to say brilliant job by RA and how truly gutted I was to discover what really happened in Dakur.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - BravoNine - 02-11-2010 06:10 AM
I truly hope this series gets nominated for BAFTAs, and preferably RA gets a well-deserved nomination and WIN, because no matter what problems I have with this storyline and the writing, RA is just simply brilliant playing Lucas/John, this is some of his best work and he is blasting his scenes out of the park!!!!
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - binkie - 02-11-2010 06:16 AM
(02-11-2010 05:35 AM)femaleBertieWooster Wrote: I'm with Binkie. Awesome analysis, especially about Lucas being the Albany file. He, that is John or Lucas is highly suggestible, with Vaughn pulling the strings. We in no way should take all the flashbacks to be real at this point.
Something important, we didn't see Maya in the flashbacks. She met him as John, that is before he detonated the bomb and killed the real Lucas North and took his identity. Edit for clarity--If he did that stuff. Also, Vaughn said "I gave her to you" or something like that. Another suggestion?
There's still a way out for Lucas, our Lucas that is.
And have to put in a good word for Ruth, if someone that huge wants to kill you, you want to make sure they're dead. She was very concerned and encouraging to Deery.
Thank you
I think your point about Lucas being suggestible is a good one. This ocurred to me, somewhat obliquely, during last week's episode. Working on the premise that nothing is in Spooks by accident, I thought it was interesting that the writer (and Richard Armitage) chose to show that Lucas was capable of a kind of rational analysis of the situation he was in regarding Harry's apparent kill order on the cryptographer. He was capable of reflecting on the uncharacteristic nature of the instruction he had seemingly been given, and working out for himself that (season theme ahoy!) 'Harry' was not what he seemed. Lucas is programmable, but he is also de-programmable.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - Deb p - 02-11-2010 06:44 AM
Hello! I am de-lurking to post this, and I'm almost certainly wrong (or clutching desperately at straws!): is it possible that Lucas in in fact the Albany file? I admit I have no well-thought-out theory to back this up. But it could be made to fit with the Chinese cell in 9.4 having the still-unexplained picture of him.
I think it's interesting that so much of John's backstory was told / suggested to him by Vaughan, even down to the chilling (and brilliant) part about being a killer waking up. There is possibly something here to underline the fact that Lucas really has not been in control of his own life for a very long time.
Feel free to destroy this mini-theory at will!
I think this is a really interesting theory from Blinkie , after all Harry obviously knows Vaughn but it is unclear how or why, also when Lucas visited Malcom and asked for the Albany file Malcom called him John and watched his reaction, perhaps he was told to do that and the fact that he reacted was his trigger to set Harry's " protocol " in motion.
RE: Series 9 Episode 7 discussion - femaleBertieWooster - 02-11-2010 06:54 AM
(01-11-2010 11:25 PM)binkie Wrote: I think it's interesting that so much of John's backstory was told / suggested to him by Vaughan, even down to the chilling (and brilliant) part about being a killer waking up. There is possibly something here to underline the fact that Lucas really has not been in control of his own life for a very long time.
You nailed it here binkie! I was thinking along those lines when I started reading the thread, was going to answer poor distressed BravoNine with the positive outlook that Vaughn just said that, Lucas looked surprised and then accepted it. I was thinking that had Lucas known what Vaughn was putting forth as the truth, he would not have said to Vaughn that he told Harry, thus prompting Vaughn to twist the knife, figuratively that is.
And you are so right about a fake Lucas holding on to that secret while being tortured. Someone so morally decrepit to kill someone for a passport would give up anything and everything he knew.
I also have the feeling that Harry and Malcolm know more about the situation than Lucas or John or both rolled into one.
edit to add--
Spoiler: show