+- Spooks Forum (http://www.spooksforum.co.uk)
+-- Forum: MI5 Operations (/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: Character & Actor Discussion (/forum-23.html)
+--- Thread: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 (/thread-1566.html)
[spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - Nitrus - 05-03-2011 08:38 PM
Last post:
"Do they give any explanation in the commentaries as to why JB suddenly decided to be a good person? When did that mysterious transformation take place? What or who made it happen? It couldn't have anything to do with JB meeting Harry as that happened afterwards. It couldn't have anything to do with JB feeling pity with his victims after he had blown up the embassy - as he then goes and kills his "friend" without a real reason, so killing must have been fun for him. And he doesn't seem to be capable of having pity with anyone anyway. So why on earth does someone like that suddenly decide to be a good, moral person?"
I can't believe you still haven't gotten over this yet.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - Byatil - 05-03-2011 08:52 PM
I don't think we're ever going to get over it until we've argued out every possible explanation
Sorry Nitrus!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - BoHenley - 05-03-2011 09:54 PM
And because the Series 9 DVD have just been released with limp explanations from the producers/etc for the main story thread of Series 9 (Lucas). Of course we're going to discuss it. I find that comment a little rude, Nitrus.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - Nitrus - 06-03-2011 12:07 AM
Take it how you will.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - DogSoSmall - 06-03-2011 09:53 AM
I was interested to hear the commentary for episode 7. The writer of that episode definitely seemed to have concerns that the Lucas/John storyline could not be explained sufficiently in the space of the final episode. Did anyone else get that impression? And he didn't seem particularly reassured by Anthony Woodhead's "oh yes, it'll be fine". So, if the writers were unsure about the plot, it's hardly surprising that we are.
I really didn't like the Lucas/John thing, but I have come round slightly by re-watching the series from the beginning with the benefit of hindsight and by listening to the commentaries. I honestly think that a couple of extra minutes in a couple of the episodes (covering the why?) could have minimised the "what the *@**!!?" for most of us.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - binkie - 06-03-2011 10:52 AM
(06-03-2011 09:53 AM)DogSoSmall Wrote: I honestly think that a couple of extra minutes in a couple of the episodes (covering the why?) could have minimised the "what the *@**!!?" for most of us.
...not to mention the how? I'm still very bothered by the lack of adequate or sensible delineation of the how?
Nope, not over this yet. Trying to take it "like a man". Failing. Not clear to me why this particular incident of disagreeable plot development continues to drag on my tolerance. I think it may come down to 9.7's re-casting of torture-as-plot-device. One rhetorical compromise too far?
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - Byatil - 06-03-2011 02:25 PM
I'm still not sure why Lucas cares for Maya more than his ex-wife?!
I re-watched 9.3 last night, and some of the dialogue really confused me. Basically, Maya goes to visit Lucas in his flat, and they have a discussion along the lines of:
Maya: “Did you kill someone?”
Lucas: “No”
Maya: “Did you hurt someone?”
Lucas: “No”
Maya: “Are you innocent?”
Lucas: “…no”
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons that Maya dislikes John is because of all the lies he has told her, regarding where he's been for the past 15 years and so on. So why does he choose to lie to her again? Surely he must realise this is all going to blow up in his face?
The one comment from the executive producer that especially annoyed me was:
If in episode 1, Lucas North, after he had got the suitcase from Vaughn had said “Harry, this man’s come back from my past and I’ve never told you this, I did this terrible thing”. If he had made that choice then to go to Harry, I think his life could have been very different. And there’s been moments all through the series actually, if you look back through the episodes where, okay, he had a choice, still then. He didn’t have to go down the road he went down. But for some flaw in his psychology, Lucas North couldn’t make those choices.
...what kind of an explanation is that, pray tell? For some "flaw in his psychology" which is never explained nor explored, Lucas suddenly loses all sense of logic and reason? The very tools which he uses day-in, day-out?
I'm in the same position, binkie. I find myself getting angry at myself for letting this plot make me so angry!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - Nitrus - 06-03-2011 06:28 PM
Byatil, a lot of your last post (if I am reading it correctly) is questioning why Lucas/John made some wrong decisions that would ultimately condemn him?
I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect the character to always make the right choices as it is to expect that from any human being. We are after all human and we do not always make the right choices no matter how informed we might be.
So I think it's totally plausible for the character to make wrong choices that only add to his strife. I'm willing to bet that if you were under the stress and pressure that Lucas was you wouldn't make the correct choice at every crossroads.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - Byatil - 06-03-2011 06:44 PM
(06-03-2011 06:28 PM)Nitrus Wrote: Byatil, a lot of your last post (if I am reading it correctly) is questioning why Lucas/John made some wrong decisions that would ultimately condemn him?
I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect the character to always make the right choices as it is to expect that from any human being. We are after all human and we do not always make the right choices no matter how informed we might be.
So I think it's totally plausible for the character to make wrong choices that only add to his strife. I'm willing to bet that if you were under the stress and pressure that Lucas was you wouldn't make the correct choice at every crossroads.
It just seems rather OOC for someone who is portrayed as a very controlled, logical character to then decide not to make the decisions which would ultimately save him? In 7.2 (I think it's that episode) Lucas is working as a double-agent for both the FSB and MI5. In that situation, he picks and chooses his lies and truths in order to secure the best possible outcome for himself. Why then in series 9 is he unable to act in the same manner? I can obviously accept that people do silly things "in the name of love" and "under pressure", but kidnapping a colleague and holding her ransom seems a tad extravagant
You say "...you wouldn't make the correct choice at every crossroads.", which I agree, I doubt anyone would. But Lucas/John seems to make the wrong choice at every crossroad. The fact that the only justification given by the writers/executive producer is that he has some "psychological flaw" suggests there is no real justification for why he acted in the way he did; aside from because he was apparently "passionately in love" with Maya (which there is no real justification for either).
It would have made more sense for Lucas/John to simply elope abroad with Maya, if he was apparently so disenchanted with his job, and wanted nothing more than a relationship with this woman. If he was in a position where he had high-level security clearances, I'm sure it wouldn't have been mega-difficult to simply make himself and Maya "disappear". Correct me if I'm wrong, though!
Of course, I could just be extremely bitter about the entire affair and be taking it all far too seriously
RE: [spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2 - xRuthx - 07-03-2011 06:05 AM
(06-03-2011 10:52 AM)binkie Wrote:(06-03-2011 09:53 AM)DogSoSmall Wrote: I honestly think that a couple of extra minutes in a couple of the episodes (covering the why?) could have minimised the "what the *@**!!?" for most of us.
...not to mention the how? I'm still very bothered by the lack of adequate or sensible delineation of the how?
Nope, not over this yet. Trying to take it "like a man". Failing. Not clear to me why this particular incident of disagreeable plot development continues to drag on my tolerance. I think it may come down to 9.7's re-casting of torture-as-plot-device. One rhetorical compromise too far?
This is the crux of the matter for me! It's not the fact that Lucas turned out to be a baddie or that he had a double identity that bothered me, it's the fact that no explanation was given for how this "new" facet of his character worked or even an adequate explanation of the why. The John/Lucas/Maya plot only works if you assume series seven and Elizabeta didn't happen. Series seven and eight were canon before series nine was and therefore to me it is the series nine writer's responsibility to sell us this new developement in a way that tallies with what we know about Lucas in seven and eight. They didn't do this. Not by a long shot.
It also felt to me like the writers weren't sure through most of nine of where they were actually aiming to take the story. There was all of this foreshadowing between Ruth and Lucas that never went anywhere because the showdown was between Harry and Lucas. There was all of this foreshadowing (especially in seven and eight) that there would be a showdown between Harry and Lucas about Russia and prison and that never went anywhere because prison and Russia got sidelined for the completely new story of Darkar. There was indication that Lucas was a complex character but never to the extent of 9.8 where the writer's couldn't decide if he was a spineless fool or a highly organised madman, misguided and confused and atoning for past wrongs or cruel and dangerous and heartless killer.
I felt like the writer's were trying to do a 'Wicked' but without letting us know Lucas had done bad things from the outset of nine, it meant evilLucas just came out of the blue as a shock and didn't give the audience the time or the explanation to adjust.
Also, the line from Harry in 9.7 about "Betrayal is a cancer... let it eat your soul... not mine" irritated me so much in the context of Lucas having spent eight years in a Russian prison keeping silent and loyal on MI5 and by extension Harry's behalf. I mean why did you bother getting Lucas out of prison at all if you weren't even going to try to contain the situation and be such a hypocrite instead! I don't know. Maybe it's just me but that bit annoyed me so much.