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Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Tea Lady - 04-04-2010 03:04 PM
Watch and discuss.
This is one of those episodes I would not choose to watch but on watching it again I really enjoyed it.
I loved the scenery in this episode and the fact that most of it took place outside the Grid. I loved the opening explosion and wonder how they filmed that.
Harry really came across as ruthless in this episode. He really didnt care about Fred Roberts at all or his family. He was an asset and that was all. The only bit of humanity he showed all episode was when he was vetting Zoe's new boyfriend. She was a bit of a quick mover although Will was quite nice looking.
Tom's final moments were not unexpected but I wonder why Harry gave him the op in the first place. Was he expecting him to fail which is why he kept Adam on? Harry hardly seemed surprised when Tom lost it in his office.
I liked the helicopter scene at the end in the early morning mist, also the wave from Tom at the end. It was almost like he was saying "no hard feelings."
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Nia M - 04-04-2010 03:29 PM
Oh yes, the introduction of Will North - unlike with
Spoiler: show
And Harry teasing Zoe (ish) about him was lovely too.Tom's final scenes were tear-jerking for me, especially when Zoe waves goodbye *sniff*
And yes, above all, that one last wave from Tom.
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Tea Lady - 04-04-2010 03:31 PM
I thought it a bit odd though that no one touched Tom. No shake of hand, no hug, no kiss. Perhaps they were not allowed too. Strange.
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Nia M - 04-04-2010 03:47 PM
Hmm, good point. Maybe they thought it would be a harder goodbye if they did?
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Silktie - 04-04-2010 03:59 PM
I really like this episode as it explores some fascinating themes. Is it a good or bad thing to sell your soul to your country? Harry obviously thinks it is a noble thing to do, no matter what the cost, while we see the all too human effects of it when Fred (probably) loses his family at the end.
It also beautifully illustrates the seductive nature of spying. Fred is initially a very reluctant participant, but at the end he is thoroughly seduced by the thrill of it, as well as the thought that he is doing it for his country. This is juxtaposed with Tom's disillusionment with the spying game and his realisation that you cannot partake of this game and walk away undamaged.
I thought the guy playing the student terrorist did very well, he seemed to have a fanatical glint in his eye without having to sprout any ideological or religious dialogue to show it.
Hee, I laughed out loud when Fred's wife called Harry "that vile man". Harry obviously needs to work on his charm a bit.
I found Tom's exit fitting, it was great to see one of them walking away like that, and not die in some horrible way. Burn-out like Tom's is a reality in the secret services, I would imagine, so it's good to see it addressed in Spooks.
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Beatriz - 04-04-2010 10:15 PM
This episode is really good. I second all what Silktie says. The comparison between Fred and Tom's feelings is very fitting.
Tom's exit was very believable, he was into pieces before this episode, two love relationships failed, Herman Joyce... You can see he isn't in his right mind when he try to test Fred with his wife and he laughs openly when Fred "pass the test", and all of a sudden he was very concern about Fred's family.
(04-04-2010 03:31 PM)Tea Lady Wrote: I thought it a bit odd though that no one touched Tom. No shake of hand, no hug, no kiss. Perhaps they were not allowed too. Strange.
I also found that very strange, I thought Zoe and Danny weren't allowed to say goodbye (it seemed to me that she would have liked hug him or say something to him at the very least), but Harry might as well have given him a good handshake...
I loved Tom with his boxes, and his alter egos and his goodbye to the camera (and Harry's smile
)As for the rest of the characters, I liked that Danny inmediately undertood why Zoe wanted to talk to the photographer, Will
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - lwhite53 - 04-04-2010 11:32 PM
This episode has everything that should make it riveting -- a terrorist organization in London, a staged bomb blast, red mercury, the manipulation of an MI5 sleeper and the destruction of his family life, the intro of Will North, everyone distrusting Tom -- but I just couldn't get into it. I think that's because I so disliked the character of Fred Roberts -- he was a blowhard, a windbag and very impressed with himself. I kept wanting to yell at Tom, "Don't destroy your career for this smug, self-satisfied son of a bitch!"
But, of course, Tom was too far gone already and they all know it. Harry, Ruth, Zoe and Danny all have visible moments wherein they question Tom's demeanor and don't quite trust him. Danny and Zoe even talk about it: "[he] sets my teeth on edge."
And, of course, Roberts gets sucked into the aura of working as a spy: "You know the really horrible thing -- I could almost enjoy this." But it destroys his family life:
Fred R: "I did it for the country."
Helen R: "You did it for yourself, because it was exciting."
Like all the other spy relationships we've seen thus far, his goes down the toilet, too.
There are some very poignant moments in the ep:
-Tom and Fred talking about how spies deal with their job:
Tom: "You have to put your real self in a box."
Fred: "What if the box got lost?"
Tom: "You'd have to reinvent yourself."
Fred: "I think you lot are clinically insane."
Tom is splitting himself into pieces (the box with his real self has suddenly come open in the middle of an op) and Fred has sensed it.
-Tom and Danny talking about using Roberts:
Tom: "The service is exploiting him. We're crucifying a man here."
Danny: "Fred Roberts or you?"
Tom's "exploding conscience" is getting the better of him.
-Harry and Tom at the end, after he's been decommissioned:
Tom turns in all the boxes (the lies) that marked him as a spy -- now all he has is his real self. Harry says, "Good luck in the real world." I love Harry's smile at the very end, when Tom turns and waves. I think H really does envy Tom, to some extent; and, he's grateful Tom left before he had a total breakdown. I also think Harry's actions were those of both a boss and a friend -- he clearly couldn't let Tom continue to work but he also made a decision for Tom (one that it seems Tom was unwilling or unable to make) that it was time to leave before the job destroyed him (as Christine predicted last ep).
I don't know that Danny and Zoe couldn't say goodbye to Tom but more likely that they found it too difficult to do so. Given the job, I'd think "burn out" is not something you'd want to associate with, like it might rub off on you.
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Beatriz - 05-04-2010 03:38 PM
I know the main storyline in the episode is Tom's breakdown, but I think it wasn't very clear what happened with the terrorists... Maybe I'm being a bit thick about it...
The student terrorist, apparently, was like a sleeper for the terrorist group, they caught him in the end but I don't think he will lead MI5 to the terrorists... Besides, if they wanted to capture him, they could have done it when the student left the University and Danny could have followed him...
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - lwhite53 - 05-04-2010 04:44 PM
I think they arrested the student/sleeper and the others were killed at the house by special forces.
RE: Episode 2 Discussion [rewatch] - Silktie - 05-04-2010 04:54 PM
(04-04-2010 11:32 PM)lwhite53 Wrote: This episode has everything that should make it riveting -- a terrorist organization in London, a staged bomb blast, red mercury, the manipulation of an MI5 sleeper and the destruction of his family life, the intro of Will North, everyone distrusting Tom -- but I just couldn't get into it. I think that's because I so disliked the character of Fred Roberts -- he was a blowhard, a windbag and very impressed with himself. I kept wanting to yell at Tom, "Don't destroy your career for this smug, self-satisfied son of a bitch!"
-Harry and Tom at the end, after he's been decommissioned:
Tom turns in all the boxes (the lies) that marked him as a spy -- now all he has is his real self. Harry says, "Good luck in the real world." I love Harry's smile at the very end, when Tom turns and waves. I think H really does envy Tom, to some extent; and, he's grateful Tom left before he had a total breakdown. I also think Harry's actions were those of both a boss and a friend -- he clearly couldn't let Tom continue to work but he also made a decision for Tom (one that it seems Tom was unwilling or unable to make) that it was time to leave before the job destroyed him (as Christine predicted last ep).
I agree with your views on Fred, but on some level I did feel very sorry for him. In the end he was forced into helping MI5 - after he initially refused they destroyed his life, leaving him no choice but to cooperate if he wanted to salvage anything of his life. Just imagine what that must have done to him. Also, they played on all his weak spots, as he says his file probably states that he is vain and susceptible to flattery. And it is exactly these things that they use to draw him in. Tom was as much a part of destroying this man's life than he is trying to save him at the end.
Good points about Tom and Harry. I agree that Harry envied Tom at the end. Earlier in the episode he seemed so wistful when Zoe came to him with that form to ask permission to date. Poor Harry probably can't remember the last time he filled in such a form, illustrating how isolated he has become with the spy world his only refuge. There is probably a small part of Harry that wishes he could leave it all behind and try to become a normal human being again, but his sense of duty won't let him. Or perhaps he is too afraid to leave, as he probably no longer knows how to lead a normal life...
(05-04-2010 03:38 PM)Beatriz Wrote: I know the main storyline in the episode is Tom's breakdown, but I think it wasn't very clear what happened with the terrorists... Maybe I'm being a bit thick about it...
The student terrorist, apparently, was like a sleeper for the terrorist group, they caught him in the end but I don't think he will lead MI5 to the terrorists... Besides, if they wanted to capture him, they could have done it when the student left the University and Danny could have followed him...
That's a good point, although I imagine the student terrorist was probably subjected to MI5's best 'persuasion techniques' and they might well have gotten the information out of him.