[spoilers] Harry and Ruth Strike Back

[Silktie]

Here's what's interesting to me re Harry/Ruth in 4.8: I'm pretty sure Harry knew damn well that it was Ruth that told Adam about the operation, because 1) Harry knows everything that goes on on the Grid, and 2) Ruth is the only one nagging him about letting Adam back on the op. And yet, he chastises the team as a whole and doesn't single Ruth out. Now why is that, I wonder?

Re the 'moment for Ruth' thing, I'm of the opinion that by this time she is well aware that she has a crush on Harry. I say this because I find Ruth quite self-aware in most other things, so I don't think she'd be able to fool herself for this long about what she feels for Harry. For me, therefore, that moment is another of many where she slips up ito hiding her feelings from the world, rather than a light-bulb moment for herself.

Harry's reaction, on the other hand, I find very much an attempt from him to let Ruth know that even though she persuaded him to do what she wants this time, she shouldn't think that this kind of thing will happen regularly. He is attempting to establish his authority after giving in on this one point. Maybe he feels the need to do this because he knows subconsciously that he is falling for her, and therefore in danger of giving her opinions too much weight? Or, you know, it could just be a "All right, so you were right, but there's no need to gloat - now get back to work before we all go to jail" kind of look...

[Tea Lady]

(27-07-2010 04:31 PM)Silktie Wrote:  Here's what's interesting to me re Harry/Ruth in 4.8: I'm pretty sure Harry knew damn well that it was Ruth that told Adam about the operation, because 1) Harry knows everything that goes on on the Grid, and 2) Ruth is the only one nagging him about letting Adam back on the op. And yet, he chastises the team as a whole and doesn't single Ruth out. Now why is that, I wonder?

I totally agree that Harry knew it was Ruth. Also because he saw her talking to Adam at the start of the episode at her desk. Harry was always fond of dragging Zoe and Danny into his office and telling them off when they went against his orders, but not Ruth. The fact that Harry knew it was Ruth but still confided in her, and sought guidance about what to do with Adam, is very telling. What on earth did Harry do before Ruth came along??

[JHyde]

I think part of it was that he knew it was Ruth. And part of it was that it turned out all right. It was the right call to bring Adam back in, but I understand why Harry made the decision he did. I think he came around to the idea of Adam working to overcome his grief. It's what Harry has done since the dawn of time. Work as a distraction.

I think that's why he was angry - he was trying to do the right thing by Adam during a very dangerous op. Plus, it was Ruth. And Ruth can piss him off like no one else.

[JHyde]

OK, the Ruth's Diary writers are opening something up that we want input on.

We want to hear when you guys think the Baghdad operation happened.

I have pretty strong opinions on this one, but I'm genuinely interested in what you guys have to say.

almh, Beatriz and I are tossing up the idea of writing the appropriate entry and we'd like some ideas.

[Philippa]

I've been wondering too when Baghdad would've happened. My guess would be late 2003/early 2004, but don't ask me why. I just get the feeling that it would've been at a time when Ruth hadn't been with Section D very long. I just like to think that Harry fell for Ruth early on, and trusted her completely even though he hadn't known her that long.

[Tea Lady]

Well looking at it logically, it would have been just after the invasion and when Baghdad was secure which was April/May 2003. I guess for the war to be vindicated, the WMD and its material would have to have been found pretty darned quick as it was already starting to kick off in Iraq with the insurgency. A second guess would be September/October 2004, which was just before the Presidential election in the US.

I guess there lies the problem as Ruth did not join Five until September 2003. Who's to say though that Harry didn't pick Ruth from GCHQ to go with him to Baghdad. Someone totally out of the loop that he could trust. Harry then never really forgot Ruth and helped secure her move to Five.

[JHyde]

See, I've always argued that it makes sense for the mission to have taken place much later in the piece, somewhere to the back end of season 4. Politically it actually makes more sense too, as the vindication for Iraq was probably needed more the longer the war went on, even after Bush won his second election.

I'm prepared to ball park it in late 2005, both because of how close Harry and Ruth would have to been for the trust aspect of it and also for the logistics and politics involved. I do think that early 2005 is also a possibility, given that Blair went to the polls in May 2005.

I think it had to have been later for Harry to so totally trust her - you can't see him doing that before 3.9, at the absolute earliest and that time frame dictates May and June of 2005. As well as the fact that it couldn't have been TOO far back so that more than 5 years elapsed between the original mission and then 8.1.

[Nia M]

Interesting idea there Tea Lady, and that might well explain his slight familiarity with her from early on (bit of flirting on first meeting, Harry? )

That does then make her betrayal of the team to Amanda and GCHQ all the more disappointing for Harry (even if kind of justified by her turning, and her hesitance in doing it anyway). I'd say though that if they'd worked together prior to her joining MI-5, couldn't she have just Harry for a transfer there, rather than resorting to agreeing to spy on the team in exchange for the secondment. I suppose it depends how involved she was in the Baghdad thing, and how well she got to know Harry, but if he trusted her enough that she was the only one other than him to know about it (aside from the American) then they must have known each other pretty well at that point.

All in all, I think it would have been after she joined (properly, not on secondment) Section D though.

[Philippa]

I like the idea of Harry choosing her from GCHQ to accompany him to Baghdad, but then there's the problem that Nia pointed out about the trust aspect. I don't think he would've picked someone he doesn't know as the only person in Britain beside himself to know about the whereabouts of weapons grade uranium. So in my view it must've definitely taken place after Ruth joined MI5, and properly too, not just on secondment.

[Tea Lady]

I see what you are all saying but I just would have found it quite unbelievable that the uranium would have been discovered in Iraq, two years after the invasion. I mean, did they not look for it at the time and why did no informant come forward? Also I know what you are saying about Harry trusting Ruth but for all we know, Harry only took Ruth along to act as an interpreter. She may not have known the full details of the mission until years later when Harry confided in her as to where he had hidden the uranium.

I don't mean to be a pain, just trying to put another POV across.