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**JHyde** · 22-09-2010, 07:49 AM

I think Ruth's concern is that she doesn't feel certain that she and Harry have something without work anymore. There is too much water under the bridge, or whatever, if I can paraphrase Meredith Grey for a moment.

**Silktie** · 22-09-2010, 08:39 AM

There's definitely a bit of steel to Ruth this season. She's always been strong, but it hasn't always been as obvious as it was in this first episode. I, for one, love that. I just hope they don't change her completely from the compassionate person she's always been. We do still need someone on the Grid that can question the all-pervailing "ends justifies the means" approach usually taken. That used to be Ruth. But with this slightly harder Ruth we saw in episode one, will it still be her that reminds the others of this?

**JHyde** · 22-09-2010, 08:41 AM

I think and hope she will. Personally, I like the changes. It would be silly for Ruth to still be who she was in seasons 2 and 3. Or even 4 and 5.

She is still the person trying to make Harry feel better and saying it will be OK. That's Ruth to her core.

Tea Lady · 22-09-2010, 12:25 PM

(21-09-2010 11:03 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:
(21-09-2010 02:25 PM)A Cousin Wrote: I agree with JHyde, Ruth's final speech is very honest and real. The only way they can live honestly with each other and themselves is on the grid. Off it they would have to repress it all. A relationship cannot function in dishonesty. She knows that very well because she was not honest with George and it killed him.

I don't really get this at all. How is Harry being dishonest by asking Ruth to marry him? Why does Ruth assume that being married equates to conventionality (living in a cottage somewhere)? Is she saying that any relationship borne of love is now out of the question? I'm more inclined to believe that she's the one being dishonest -- she's basically denying everything that's happened over the past 8 years.

Just catching up on this thread, and all these posts are brilliant.

Ok, I understand the whole Ruth "not wanting to live a lie" anymore than she has to do already, thing. But putting my pragmatist hat on, why can't she marry Harry, live in London, and still work at 5? Why is that life, living a lie? I am afraid that I still don't understand the excuse that she gave.

Ruth will ALWAYS have to hide what she does for a living, for the rest of her life, with whoever she meets, wherever she lives. I think Ruth has almost decided in her head, that she is not meant to have a family, not meant to have a husband, not meant to have close friends. Look how she reacted when Beth was offered to her? A look of dread, at someone living close to her, in her private space.

So she fears that without work, she and Harry will be nothing, because Ruth's life is her work and so she believes it is the same for Harry. Well I don't believe you can be in love with someone and just be satisfied that the working relationship, however close, will be enough. If you love someone you need to be intimate with them.

Also, when Harry asked Ruth to marry him, she said "I can't." Not "I won't" or just plain "No." It was Ruth back in Harry's office again in 4.3. "I can't have dinner again." Ruth is a born analyst and thinks things through 150% before coming to a decision. She does the same with Harry. People say Harry isn't a romantic. I think Ruth is even less of one than Harry.

lwhite53 · 22-09-2010, 01:36 PM

(22-09-2010 12:25 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:
(21-09-2010 11:03 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:
(21-09-2010 02:25 PM)A Cousin Wrote: I agree with JHyde, Ruth's final speech is very honest and real. The only way they can live honestly with each other and themselves is on the grid. Off it they would have to repress it all. A relationship cannot function in dishonesty. She knows that very well because she was not honest with George and it killed him.

I don't really get this at all. How is Harry being dishonest by asking Ruth to marry him? Why does Ruth assume that being married equates to conventionality (living in a cottage somewhere)? Is she saying that any relationship borne of love is now out of the question? I'm more inclined to believe that she's the one being dishonest -- she's basically denying everything that's happened over the past 8 years.

Just catching up on this thread, and all these posts are brilliant.

Ok, I understand the whole Ruth "not wanting to live a lie" anymore than she has to do already, thing. But putting my pragmatist hat on, why can't she marry Harry, live in London, and still work at 5? Why is that life, living a lie? I am afraid that I still don't understand the excuse that she gave.

Ruth will ALWAYS have to hide what she does for a living, for the rest of her life, with whoever she meets, wherever she lives. I think Ruth has almost decided in her head, that she is not meant to have a family, not meant to have a husband, not meant to have close friends. Look how she reacted when Beth was offered to her? A look of dread, at someone living close to her, in her private space.

So she fears that without work, she and Harry will be nothing, because Ruth's life is her work and so she believes it is the same for Harry. Well I don't believe you can be in love with someone and just be satisfied that the working relationship, however close, will be enough. If you love someone you need to be intimate with them.

Also, when Harry asked Ruth to marry him, she said "I can't." Not "I won't" or just plain "No." It was Ruth back in Harry's office again in 4.3. "I can't have dinner again." Ruth is a born analyst and thinks things through 150% before coming to a decision. She does the same with Harry. People say Harry isn't a romantic. I think Ruth is even less of one than Harry.

Thanks TL -- you've clarified, quite well I might add, what my issues are. Harry didn't ask Ruth to marry him, resign their jobs and move off to conventional wedded bliss somewhere in the country. He just asked her to marry him. All the rest of it is her assumptions about what that means.

And the "living a lie" bit -- that's Ruth's guilt over George's fate speaking. Marrying Harry and working on the grid would not be a lie -- it's the inevitable outcome to the 8-year setup of the HR relationship. What screws up characters and story lines is inconsistency -- the willing suspension of disbelief thingy doesn't work if you change the rules in the middle of the game.

**A Cousin** · 23-09-2010, 03:06 AM

(22-09-2010 12:25 PM)Tea Lady Wrote: I think Ruth has almost decided in her head, that she is not meant to have a family, not meant to have a husband, not meant to have close friends.

So she fears that without work, she and Harry will be nothing, because Ruth's life is her work and so she believes it is the same for Harry.

(22-09-2010 01:36 PM)lwhite53 Wrote: And the "living a lie" bit -- that's Ruth's guilt over George's fate speaking.

Hmmm...things to ponder.

I cannot argue with the ideas that Ruth's reasoning may be based in her guilt over the past and her fears of intimacy. She is wounded and flawed and that is what makes good drama. Perhaps she is over compensating for the guilt she feels over George's death and her subsequent inability to believe that she deserves to be loved and have all the things "normal" people have: a husband, friends, a house anywhere - just for instance. She hasn't forgiven herself. However, I can't blame nor judge her for those fears no matter who is extending the proposal and how compelling he is. Because of the things she's seen and done, emotionally, she's had to compartmentalize the past and throw herself into her work. She can face her guilt honestly on the grid in the name of the greater good. I guess I can just sympathize with how it would color her ability to accept Harry. I don't think she is being dishonest about her feelings. I think she knows exactly how she feels and with that speech is letting him know that she does care and giving all she can at that moment. Maybe what she is trying to tell him is not that she doesn't love him, just that she is not yet in a place of self-forgiveness to able to accept him. Until she can, their marriage would be living a lie. And that would not be fair to Harry. And she cares too much for him to do that to him.

God, I hope this makes sense. Even if you may not agree with it.

An evil idea has occurred to me that she may be keeping him at arms length on purpose to protect him from something else. Time will tell on that one.

Naivety · 23-09-2010, 07:23 AM

I keep having the uncomfortable feeling that she doesn't want to leave the grid and settle down in a cosy cottage in Sussex because she has an ulterior motive for staying around. I'm becoming more and more worried that she is the betrayer (and I really, really don't want it to be her). The first reason for saying she couldn't marry Harry was the decisions he's made. That has to mean having George killed and destroying her life with him in Cyprus.

**Fidget** · 23-09-2010, 07:47 AM

(23-09-2010 07:23 AM)Naivety Wrote: I keep having the uncomfortable feeling that she doesn't want to leave the grid and settle down in a cosy cottage in Sussex because she has an ulterior motive for staying around. I'm becoming more and more worried that she is the betrayer (and I really, really don't want it to be her). The first reason for saying she couldn't marry Harry was the decisions he's made. That has to mean having George killed and destroying her life with him in Cyprus.

They can't make Ruth a baddie, I will never watch it again if they do Undecided

**JHyde** · (This post was last modified: 23-09-2010 07:52 AM by JHyde.)

I'd just like to point out that yes, maybe Ruth has decided against family, marriage, rah rah rah - is that really something we're going to curse her out for? After everything she's been through? Or indeed, if she hadn't, it would still be her choice.

I applaud her for saying that what she thinks she'd have with Harry is not enough. Better that she doesn't dive into a marriage she doesn't completely want.

It's possible that Ruth might be a double agent like Ros was in season 6.

Tea Lady · 23-09-2010, 08:36 AM

(23-09-2010 07:50 AM)JHyde Wrote: It's possible that Ruth might be a double agent like Ros was in season 6.

Heavens above!! When did Ruth get a chance to become a double agent? Do we think she went to China or somewhere, before finding herself in Cyprus?

Yes, I also have the feeling she is keeping Harry at arms lenght to protect him from something that is coming. She would have married him a thousand times before she became a double agent, but not now as it would destroy Harry.

I think I need to go and get another cup of tea this morning.