Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[DanieLa]

I must say I’m totally surprised to see how many people dislike the Lucas/ John storyline.

I think it’s absolutely brilliant.

Granted, I was never a big fan of his. When he first came on I didn’t really know what to think. To me he was this not quite right in the head sort of guy who was struggling to come to terms with his undoubtedly difficult past. But nothing more than that. He didn’t really capture my imagination.

But now, NOW he’s interesting.

And, yes, I think it’s perfectly believable that after 15 years of hiding away, of try to forget all the emotions that come with his past, a “suitcase full of memories” is all it takes to damage the facade beyond repair.

I think it’s great, especially because I’m not convinced they’re going to kill him off.

He may not be able to return as an MI5 officer, but he could still be a part of the show. – A regular bad guy, in a way.


I think 9.7 was one of the best episodes they ever put on. I like the Lucas story twist. I love what they do with Ruth’s character. I’m head over heels in love with this painful but wonderful thing Ruth and Harry have going…

I mean, come on! 9.7 was bitter sweet. It was thrilling. The acting was terrific all around!

What more could we ask for?

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 02:36 PM)DanieLa Wrote:  I must say I’m totally surprised to see how many people dislike the Lucas/ John storyline.

I think it’s absolutely brilliant.

Granted, I was never a big fan of his. When he first came on I didn’t really know what to think. To me he was this not quite right in the head sort of guy who was struggling to come to terms with his undoubtedly difficult past. But nothing more than that. He didn’t really capture my imagination.

But now, NOW he’s interesting.

And, yes, I think it’s perfectly believable that after 15 years of hiding away, of try to forget all the emotions that come with his past, a “suitcase full of memories” is all it takes to damage the facade beyond repair.

It's not that we dislike the storyline, it's that we just simply find it incredulous to believe it.

There's still so many questions and this storyline is so full of holes that the writers will have to answer all that before a lot of us can be really satisfied that Lucas's storyline was done with consistency and grace and not just for the sake of a shock value.

I don't deny that this storyline has kept me glued to my screen, I don't deny that the writers are very clever and have shocked me from left and right. It is a very ingenious plot and certainly a storyline that hasn't happened to our beloved Spooks, but there are just certain elements in this storyline that just doesn't add up all correctly.

So for most of us who are upset or dissatisfied over the storyline, it's more of the reasons that were presented to us and how a lot of that just doesn't seem to stack up well. A lot of us put our heart and soul into this character, and suddenly we are led to believe that it was all just a lie, it's a lot to swallow.

[HellsBells]

I couldn't agree with you more, BravoNine. I really hope that this storyline is more than it appears, and that there is a really good explanation in 9.8 or at least 10.1.

[arwyn]

The twist/turn from Lucas to John is just.... unexplainable.

Lucas is a caring man with a conscience. John is neither. You can't pretend you are nice, it comes from within. John does what he does with no remorse, no flicker of the eye. Lucas was never like that. It seems like they are two different people, split personality. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense and I prefer sense to exciting nonsense.

"Lucas North... is dead." WHAT?!
He's spent the last 15 years atoning for his sins and blows it all away? For a woman he hasn't seen in 15 years? No, no, no.

If it's simply so, then it's plot holes over plot holes.
Unless there's some other twist.

[nothingisasitseems]

Going by the viewing figures it would seem that the public is not over-enomaourred of the John/Lucas storyline.

If you think of the screen-time that Maya as had she really only amounts to a peripheral character.

[DanieLa]

I can’t let this go. Please don’t be offended. I honestly don’t understand and I’m really curious.

What is it you find so incredulous about that John/ Lucas thing? That someone could live a lie for 15 years? That this lie is at one point catching up with that person?

I mean no one is saying that John is all bad.

As far as we know he committed a horrible crime, yes. And then he committed another crime to hide the first one, and so on. The reason I like this so much is because I think it’s wonderfully tragic.

I really don’t believe that he’s a monster, or anything. I think he’s a very unfortunate guy, who made a mistake, got mixed up with the wrong sort and didn’t come clean when he should have.
And now he’s desperate and is paying a dear price.



You said you put your heart and soul into this character and now find yourself disappointed.
What is it you find so disappointing?
Or maybe: What is it you would have wanted for him?

I honestly don't see the plot as ... incomplete.

[A Cousin]

(03-11-2010 03:24 PM)DanieLa Wrote:  I can’t let this go. Please don’t be offended. I honestly don’t understand and I’m really curious.

Hi DanieLa! If you follow this link you will find several reasons from those that find the current Lucas plot unbelievable: http://www.spooksforum.co.uk/thread-1214.html

Enjoy!

[redlyn]

(03-11-2010 03:24 PM)DanieLa Wrote:  You said you put your heart and soul into this character and now find yourself disappointed.
What is it you find so disappointing?
Or maybe: What is it you would have wanted for him?

I honestly don't see the plot as ... incomplete.

I think the fact that we find difficult is not that he has been living a lie for 15 years; that's part of spy lore so is understandable for them to include it in a plotline - it's what we as viewers have previously been shown of his personality. This is not just the heroic side that supports his team and defends his country but also the private gentleness and caring. If it were all a facade then we would have not seen that in his nature in the private life scenes.

This all smacks of the writers just deciding to have a bit of fun. RA was obviously shocked when he opened his script - you can tell from his interviews, although he's too sweet to be undiplomatic about it. He has been building a beautfully complex creation for two years and then has to twist his portrayal into something else. If this were a genuine story arc in the way a novelist would write then I could accept it because the justification would be there and there wouldn't be so many holes.

I think we're upset because the writers think that we're idiots and will just accept any old tosh. Careful planning of this character change could have solved this. Perhaps they just have too many writers and not enough vision.

I feel that we will be sorely disappointed by the explanation next week and that some folk on here will have already come up with more plausible ideas. I deeply hope that I'm wrong.

[Kirayuki]

I think it's to early to say anything about the entire plotline. This time last year there were loads of holes in the nightingale story (some of which were never wrapped up i admit) but we still have the concluding episode to answer questions on Lucas/John.
To say that it's totally 'unjustifiable' or 'any old tosh' or 'the writers thinking us stupid' is not realy a justifyable claim until after we see their conclusion. You never know you may regret all this bashing.

The writers know what they're doing, they'll be having a pretty good go at tying it up in the next ep and possibly 10.1.

Also i think it's worth pointing out that they've done this before to characters. Look at Connie James for example. We all believed she was good until she killed Ben. You just can't believe what they say about anyone in this show... ever. (Yes that includes Harry, Ruth, Dimitri, Beth, Malcolm and Tariq).

[arwyn]

(03-11-2010 04:08 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  Also i think it's worth pointing out that they've done this before to characters. Look at Connie James for example. We all believed she was good until she killed Ben. You just can't believe what they say about anyone in this show... ever. (Yes that includes Harry, Ruth, Dimitri, Beth, Malcolm and Tariq).

With Connie we had clues, subtle things throughout series 7.

Speculation below

Spoiler: show

With Lucas, no, no there wasn't any clue that underneath he was a cold blooded killer. He did his job well, he loved Elizabetta, he was a good agent. He hated traitors, said it to Connie's face with passion. The difference of personality between Lucas and John is so fundamental, that only a brainwashing with implanted sleeper personality can adequately explain it. No way could the sweet Lucas be a pretense, it's rooted too deep.

Unless the writers just found a rabbit in their hat, pulled it out, thought it was great and just wrote it down, ignoring the last 2 series and Richard's portrayal of Lucas. Would they be so dismissive?