Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[AnnMarie]

(09-11-2010 03:23 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Plausibility and logic went out the window the moment they stepped on this Lucas-Is-John train and decided not to get off.

And really, adding those flashes from Series 7 and 8 were just like rubbing salt on the wound. And honestly, I don't think I'll ever heal from this.

Absolutely right on BravoNine

(09-11-2010 03:23 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Richard Armitage is the saving grace of this storyline, he played this tortured tormented soul so well that for one hour, I even forgot the gigantic plot holes and found myself so drawn into the story! He was brilliant, perfect, so haunting, chilling, yet loving and conflicted.

And as for the Lucas that we all loved so much, the Lucas that I still believe was in there this episode, despite the darkness of John Bateman, I think I did see a shred of Lucas shining through, that part of him that still wanted to protect his team, that still did not want to hurt them anymore than he needed to. He's in there and he decided to end this. In my head, I'll always believe that this monster called John is another personality inside Lucas, and while John may have succeeded in destroying the life Lucas loved, Lucas did make the ultimate sacrifice, he ended this dark monster of John, made sure John could not hurt anyone, including himself. In my head, I'll keep telling myself that. That Lucas won, he jumped because he wanted to stop John, he died a hero.

Brilliant here BravoNine, quite brilliant.


As you said, "This is not gonna be easy to come back from." I fear that the shark is in the water...

[loladom]

Question - (bit confused at the end)
Were Ruth's tears and the freezed poses/shock of the Alpha team for the loss of Lucas or for the suspision Harry is dead? Did Harry have coms on or not, would they have heard "shoot me now" and assumed he was a gonna? Or, having found that the bomb was a dud they believed Harry was a gonna because there was no bargaining tool and thus eliminating any chance Harry would talk him down?

Did Harry go back to the grid before the HS phone call?

[JHyde]

Apart from the scenes between Ruth and Lucas, I actually felt like the episode was a let down. I did enjoy the idea of what the next season might be about, but every major plot twist was predictable.

The 'flashbacks' were meant to indicate that 'Lucas' was still in there, thus making his jump off the roof a reasonable action.

Bleh. Worst Spooks finale ever.

[the_one]

first post.
Long time fan of spooks and this web site. yay !

OK, comments about this ep.
My first feeling when the screen 'closed' was "this is it".
In the past, Harry has done 2 things, 'His Job', like the EMP at the start of Season 9, and the 'He got away with it' like dealing with Blake, helping Ruth and Zoe escape the first time.

But times have changed, and now Harry has to account for what he did. As Lucas said, Good people come in, and get spat out.

The line from the Home Sec about "Life after MI5" made me feel that this was the end. It felt like the HS was saying "if you leave now, we can leave the past as the past, and we will not look into you"
Not the best way to end the show, but the main people survived, and was a reasonable finale


But after finding out that it is comming back, we have a few issues.
1) Harry will be investigated. Depending on how hard they look, this will be more than a slap on the wrist. Can he lead the team if he has been disiplined
2) In the past, yes the section chief has changed, (Tom, Adam, Ros, Lucas), but there has always been Harry at the top.
With Harry in doubt, Lucas gone, that is the top 2 people of Section D gone. And as others have said, 'the kids' are not ready to lead the section on their own
3) If Harry stays, and Season 10 is to investigate him, 8 eps of going through Harrys life dosn't sound enjoyable. If they do spend S10 doing that, then I have to agree with the earlier comment of Jumping and Shark

[femaleBertieWooster]

(08-11-2010 11:59 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  My goodness - after having given us an absolutely ridicolous storyline, after having insulted the audience's intelligence by huge plotholes and a totally illogical character development, after not having bothered to give any plausible explanations to what had happened, they are now threatening us with another series? Well, I'm sure I won't take anymore of that crap!

This is how I'm feeling at the moment.

What kind of loser thinks setting off a bomb will turn him into a somebody? Also, if he already had Maya the good girl, he wouldn't think becoming a mass murderer would please her and win her for good.

I'm sure I'll watch the next season but won't be counting down the minutes until it starts.

(09-11-2010 12:25 AM)molecatcher Wrote:  Poor Lucas but what a brave way to exit.

Brave? He probably took out a street vendor when he landed.

(09-11-2010 01:39 AM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  I hated the way the writers wanted their cake and to eat it too. The flashbacks to the past and the comforting of Ruth, were like an insulting crumb rubbing salt into the wound to the Lucas believers, yet we were at the same time supposed to feel he was so not Lucas that he would kill Ruth and give the Albany file to the Chinese even after he found out what it contained. Icky!

Yep.

And after Maya died. Why would he give the file to the Chinese? He wasn't going to use the money, just end it all.

[Jhokur]

The whole series 9 had the theme of truth & lies, being real & being fake. People facing their pasts to make their futures.

For Lucas/John, the past was stronger than the present, thanks to Vaughn - I got that "Lucas" was damaged from day 1 when Harry brought him back and Lucas said he'd spy for the Russians. He probably wasn't lying. He came to realize when he came back though everything he lied to get was being stripped away, dominated by the events in prison breaking him further, and when Vaughn came back into the picture - here was the lie he could try to hold onto again. I think when Lucas told Ruth that she was the one he was most afraid to find out about his past, it's because of the compassion Ruth had for him as part of the team - Harry was dad, Ruth mom. You can disappoint your dad and he'll forgive you in time. Moms hold the hurt for a long time. (feel free to disagree, happens to be the way my family is...)

For Ruth and Harry, their lives couldn't be more screwed up because of each other, and yet they desperately wanted to be together. They lie to each other that it's alright, mostly for the job and I guess to stay sane.

Ruth herself was damaged by the events with George and his son - a part of her died. A part of her I think we saw come back to life at the end when she thought Harry was going to die, then realize Lucas spared him to take his own life.

Harry was burned by both Ruth's refusal and Lucas' betrayal. For a man that has to do such bitter maddening things for 5's sake, he has the biggest heart when it comes to the team and especially Ruth. I believe he's been trying to save Ruth from what Lucas and Tom went through, albeit both of them went through their disintegration for very different reasons. Couple that with Blake's betrayal... it's a wonder he's not drinking more!

For Beth, she was caught up early - her lies came out very quickly and almost cost her everything she worked for. Now she's burned as well by Lucas' actions and how he was supposed to be her mentor.

Every time we saw or heard about Albany, it was a lie or a fake, then for it to come out to be a failed project - a lie, a fake threat. The painting stored as Albany on the mainframes, Malcolm's package that was to be Albany, and finally the "real" thing. All for nothing.

Even the Grid took a hit when Dimitri blew the bomb (and the servers?) so they could track down the hackers.

I think Dimitri & Tariq were the only people to come out unscathed from this, mostly because they
were both underused? Same goes for the briefness with Malcolm - hopefully he'll be back for S10.

Hopefully S10 will be about the truth, which it seems likely - I'm going to take a stab and say that for the most part the series will be about Harry's inquest, where the team has been - likely flashbacks from S1 to "now", and what Harry's been hiding. I'm guessing another MI-6 member will be brought on to take over as Section Chief, with much apathy and second-guessing. Harry will be punished for the Albany situ, but will survive. For as long as Harry's been doing the job, there is ZERO chance they'll get to replace him with someone immediately - it would take them a long time just to get up to speed to what Harry knows, let alone how to handle the Grid. They've tried numerous times to discredit Harry (even take down Section D in Series 3)- he knows enough to keep his job. Ruth said it herself - the Grid will fall apart without him, though if he does go I see everyone going & being replaced with all new staff. I can't see that happening unless it's the last episode ever. NOBODY wants to see Spooks become what happened to M.A.S.H.

Mind you I'm not ranting - I'm mostly trying to think out what Series 9 meant to me and Spooks.

[Adam Carter]

(09-11-2010 03:23 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  A bit like Adam, but I think when Adam died, it was not hell breaking loose on the Grid. Harry was there, Ros was there, and Lucas was there to back everyone up.

Actually, I was referring to when Adam himself was introduced after the Tom incident. The Grid was in shambles, no leader in sight.

The loss of Lucas stings right now. Hard. And watching Harry have to carry the team through all of this without the aid of a Ros or an Adam was quite painful. The show needs an injection of something new and, preferably, more stable.

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 05:33 AM)Adam Carter Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 03:23 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  A bit like Adam, but I think when Adam died, it was not hell breaking loose on the Grid. Harry was there, Ros was there, and Lucas was there to back everyone up.

Actually, I was referring to when Adam himself was introduced after the Tom incident. The Grid was in shambles, no leader in sight.

The loss of Lucas stings right now. Hard. And watching Harry have to carry the team through all of this without the aid of a Ros or an Adam was quite painful. The show needs an injection of something new and, preferably, more stable.

I still think it's a bit more, when Adam came in, he was sort of brought in transition to find Tom (which in Lucas's storyline would mean Alec is the replacement...) but at least then Harry was still there. As hard as it was to decommission Tom, it wasn't a massive freak-out attack, it wasn't everyone's lives at stake. Tom got to walk away from a world that killed and destroyed his friends.

But with Lucas, it runs much deeper. Lucas is more than likely dead, the team chased after him, watched him become this monster that they barely recognize, they had to regard him as the enemy. Tom's exit hurt, but Lucas's cuts even deeper because it's more than them losing Lucas, it's them losing Harry as well.

When Tom left, Harry could still deal with it. Tom was alive. But Lucas, with Harry having to face him down in a confrontation, having to suffer that heart-breaking betrayal, and watching a young man that he cared very deeply about fall to his death because of this torment and suffering, it's all killing Harry inside, and it's killing Ruth inside too. This mess definitely runs deeper than Tom's exit could ever do.

I do see parallels with Tom and Lucas, but I think Lucas's exit cuts more deeply into the heart. He was the guy they looked to for answers, he was the big brother who was taking care of the little ones who didn't know much about this world and wasn't ready to lead. And now Lucas's departure has left the Grid in a state of stunned horror as Harry is in trouble, Ruth is in trouble, and Dimitri, Beth, and Tariq have no clue how to fix it all.

I'm sure they will eventually heal, but I think it's gonna take a bit longer than the transition from Tom to Adam.

[Forever Secret]

(09-11-2010 03:48 AM)loladom Wrote:  Question - (bit confused at the end)
Were Ruth's tears and the freezed poses/shock of the Alpha team for the loss of Lucas or for the suspision Harry is dead? Did Harry have coms on or not, would they have heard "shoot me now" and assumed he was a gonna? Or, having found that the bomb was a dud they believed Harry was a gonna because there was no bargaining tool and thus eliminating any chance Harry would talk him down?

Did Harry go back to the grid before the HS phone call?

I always took that as Ruth fearing over Harry rather than her crying over Lucas, they all suspected Lucas was going to either run away or die, but then the tables turned and it was Harry's life on the line. I dont know if there were any coms either, Harry said he needed to go alone that could have meant he had no coms, I think Ruth in particular was crying over Harry and she was terrfied Lucas might have pulled the trigger.

I don't think he went back to The Grid before that call either

I don't think this compares to other Spooks finales, over all as a final Ep is wasn't brilliant at all, but the performences were brilliant, Rich Armitage , Peter Firth and Nicola Walker were fantastic, but the storyline I have to say was a little to cliche and predictable, just before an answer was revealed I gussed what it was going to be , never a good thing .

I have to say though one of my favourite scenes was the Lucas/Ruth exchange, Ruth trying to play mind games to make him let her go...great acting,

Maybe its been going for too long, can anyone else see Series 10 as being the last?

[fusey007]

So here is my first post on the forums...

On first appearance I was extremely let down by the finale, especially with there being no trademark Spooks twist at the end. But then maybe the 'twist' is that there is no twist? certainly a diffent route to previous season finales.

For all the speculation of Maya having greater involvement she turned out to be a bit of a nothing character, but honourable in her actions of luring John-Lucas into the trap.

Still no explanation of why the chinese had the photo of Luca, I can only presume that Vaughn had told them that Lucas was the chap that would deliver Albany.

Is John-Lucas dead? To be honest I would say he is. by his own admission he would do anything to avoid going to prison again.

I was surprised not to see Malcolm popping up for a cameo.

Alec should be really be in a position to take over as section chief, despite his acomplished record of spotting 'liars'. surely a role in internal afairs is vastly different to that of a field agent?

Harry has always put Crown and Country ahead of everything. Its always about the greater wellbeing, therefore to hand over Albany in exchange for Ruth is going aaginst all he has ever stood for. We all know that love conquers all though so the options are either Harry has put his love for Ruth ahead of everything else in his life....or he knew Albany was a fake (and can prove he knew this in order to clear his name).

Harry was convinced that there was a strong possibility he would not get out of his meeting with John-Lucas alive. "It's my turn" he said to Ruth. Also the phonecall to his daughter points towards this as well. With this realisation has Harry now seen the lure of a life away from MI5?

I am fairly convinced that series 10 will be the last and as such it will be heavily focused around Harry. This may involve a lengthy investigation into his history as indicated by the Home Secretary but I am sure it will also be the making of Harry and Ruth as a couple (but i am not convinced of a happy ending).

The next series will end will Harry leaving his post either as a result of the investigation, of his own accord to start a new life with Ruth or, and this is my guess, he will die in the line of duty. Good guys very rarely get to walk off into the sunset.

Thats my initial thoughts but I still need to digest last nights episode.