[spoilers] Harry and Ruth. The Wonder Years.

[Kirayuki]

(25-11-2010 06:41 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 06:12 PM)almh Wrote:  Sorry if I repeat what anyone else has said before (there are a lot of pages that I've missed reading through!) but I do think that the last episode of series 9 was beautifully ironic. Harry losing his job (possibly) to save Ruth's life, when in series 5 Ruth 'died' to save Harry's job. Beautiful, beautiful. I have to say, I did like that (perhaps unintentional) piece of irony.

Nice ironic parallel there. Hopefully, s10 will make it clear (to Ruth) that what Harry did in giving Albany away is exactly the same thing she did in giving Mani the location of the uranium, and it was for the same reason -- to save someone they cared about. Interesting that in both cases, the "weapon" wasn't viable (Albany was a fake and the uranium wasn't where Ruth said it was).

I hadn't thought about the Uranium parallel! How did i not see it!
Thanks for pointing that one out.

[Tea Lady]

(25-11-2010 09:52 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 06:41 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 06:12 PM)almh Wrote:  Sorry if I repeat what anyone else has said before (there are a lot of pages that I've missed reading through!) but I do think that the last episode of series 9 was beautifully ironic. Harry losing his job (possibly) to save Ruth's life, when in series 5 Ruth 'died' to save Harry's job. Beautiful, beautiful. I have to say, I did like that (perhaps unintentional) piece of irony.

Nice ironic parallel there. Hopefully, s10 will make it clear (to Ruth) that what Harry did in giving Albany away is exactly the same thing she did in giving Mani the location of the uranium, and it was for the same reason -- to save someone they cared about. Interesting that in both cases, the "weapon" wasn't viable (Albany was a fake and the uranium wasn't where Ruth said it was).

I hadn't thought about the Uranium parallel! How did i not see it!
Thanks for pointing that one out.

Not sure about that. Harry knew Albany was a fake from the start "so didn't mind" giving it up. Ruth on the other hand thought the Uranium was there. Ruth did not know, Harry had moved it, so not quite a parallel. If Harry had not moved it, Ruth could have been responsible for WW3. All Harry has done with giving away Albany, is ruin his career and make the UK's defences seem not as strong as they were once perceived to be.

Both actions were done for love but IMO, Ruth's action was potentially more devastating.

[Kirayuki]

If anything that strengthens the argument that Ruth should realise that she is just as bad as (If not worse than) Harry when it comes to her actions in the name of love.

(That sounds so cheesy...)

[lwhite53]

(25-11-2010 10:20 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 09:52 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 06:41 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 06:12 PM)almh Wrote:  Sorry if I repeat what anyone else has said before (there are a lot of pages that I've missed reading through!) but I do think that the last episode of series 9 was beautifully ironic. Harry losing his job (possibly) to save Ruth's life, when in series 5 Ruth 'died' to save Harry's job. Beautiful, beautiful. I have to say, I did like that (perhaps unintentional) piece of irony.

Nice ironic parallel there. Hopefully, s10 will make it clear (to Ruth) that what Harry did in giving Albany away is exactly the same thing she did in giving Mani the location of the uranium, and it was for the same reason -- to save someone they cared about. Interesting that in both cases, the "weapon" wasn't viable (Albany was a fake and the uranium wasn't where Ruth said it was).

I hadn't thought about the Uranium parallel! How did i not see it!
Thanks for pointing that one out.

Not sure about that. Harry knew Albany was a fake from the start "so didn't mind" giving it up. Ruth on the other hand thought the Uranium was there. Ruth did not know, Harry had moved it, so not quite a parallel. If Harry had not moved it, Ruth could have been responsible for WW3. All Harry has done with giving away Albany, is ruin his career and make the UK's defences seem not as strong as they were once perceived to be.

Both actions were done for love but IMO, Ruth's action was potentially more devastating.

I agree with you. My general point was that she's angry at him for doing exactly the same thing she did. Somewhat hypocritical, imo.

[Silktie]

I don't think in that moment Ruth was judging him against her own actions. I think she was judging him against his own previous actions. In other words, she was judging him against his previous unwillingness to give up the uranium to save George and Nico, and now, because it is her and he loves her, he makes a different decision. Does that make it less unfair on Harry? No, not for me, but it does help me understand where she was coming from.

I found Ruth's choice of words really interesting. She pertinently tells him that it was unfair of him to love her in that instance. In other words, she is indirectly accusing him of making the decision he made on emotion rather than on common sense, and that she perhaps thinks he would have done things differently if it had been anyone else being held by Lucas. I think she may be right about that. Would he have given up Albany to save Beth or Dimitri?

[harrbd]

Of course Harry could argue that he was giving up Albany which didn't work (no deaths) to save a top MI5 Intelligence Officer who could save thousands of lives in the future. An unemotional and logical decision !

[Kirayuki]

People have gone down that route in some of the Fanfiction i've been reading recently.
Harry has been using the excuse that the services best Analyst was worth more than a state secret which didn't work. I'd buy that any day.

[HellsBells]

(26-11-2010 10:27 AM)harrbd Wrote:  Of course Harry could argue that he was giving up Albany which didn't work (no deaths) to save a top MI5 Intelligence Officer who could save thousands of lives in the future. An unemotional and logical decision !

I totally agree with this, Harry could argue his way out of this. He did after all know that Albany was a fake from the very beginning.
But he must have known he was personally risking his whole career (and honour) by giving away a state secret to protect just one life.

[Kirayuki]

I think Harry is purposely putting his job on the line as he wants to leave the service. Ruth guilt tripped him into taking back his resignation letter in episode 1 and in episode 3 he let a man escape out of sympathy risking his job, then later in the same episode gave the old man peace of mind at risk of his career... which Ruth again pointed out.

It does look to me like he's pushing himself.

[Silktie]

Maybe subconsciously, but I honestly don't think in that moment when he had to make the choice to give up Albany to save Ruth, his first thought was that this was a nifty way to get out of the Service. His only thought at that point was to save Ruth, no matter the consequences. I think he thought he would deal with whatever the fallout was, later. Besides, he did have a plan to save both Ruth and Albany, it just didn't work out.