[spoilers] Harry and Lucas

[A Cousin]

(06-12-2010 02:21 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  You are right, Harry didn't do more to protect Lucas at all. It's such a shame, after Lucas risking his life to save Harry and get him out of the Sugar-Horse situation, I would have expected more from Harry to try and save Lucas. Giving Lucas enough rope to hang himself on was not what I had looking for!

Harry didn't try hard enough, the tone in his voice was never sincere and true, he let Lucas down in Moscow, and he let Lucas down again.

Hells Bells said: Harry did indeed just give Lucas enough rope to hang himself even after saying that they would help Lucas when needed.


I would agree that the relationship between Harry and Lucas was not developed enough in prior series. This explains to me why Harry's reaction in the interrogation of 9.7 to Lucas telling him about his life as John felt a bit OTT to me.

However, I'm confused. What situation are you referring to when you refer to Harry giving Lucas enough rope to hang himself? Giving him the gun and letting him go chase down Vaughan after the interrogation in 9.7? The game of cat and mouse in 9.8?

[HellsBells]

Well, Harry didn't take any notice of Ruth regarding her suspicions concerning Lucas, when has Harry ignored Ruth? Ruth is always right so why did Harry allow Lucas to continue?

Giving Lucas the gun in 9.7, I guess was Harry's way of saying he still trusted Lucas but surely considering Lucas had just admitted to lying to MI5 for 15 years and bombing an embassy there was no way he was coming back to Harry. Harry should have detained Lucas for his own good at that point.

[Silktie]

So you would rather have seen Harry throw Lucas in jail again at that point? Would people not then have moaned about Harry not being willing to give Lucas a second chance?

[binkie]

(06-12-2010 02:12 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Well I think the writers destroyed the bond between Harry and Lucas without any explanation as to why these two seemed so close. In 9.7 (I think) Harry asked Ruth if he was protecting Lucas more than he was protecting her (or something like that), but I didn't see Harry protecting Lucas at all. Why didn't Harry do more to protect Lucas?

(06-12-2010 02:21 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Harry didn't try hard enough, the tone in his voice was never sincere and true, he let Lucas down in Moscow, and he let Lucas down again.

I agree there was not much investigation or demonstration of the WHY of this relationship beyond the two obvious factors of mutual professional respect and the sudden weirdness of the abandoned/abandoning situation. However, I do think Lucas – in spite of his evident struggle to implement an emotional acceptance of what happened – had, probably before his release, reached a point of practical acceptance. He was a field operative in a potentially hostile environment, and he got caught. He had to know there was a risk of that. He had to know there would be endless politicking involved in the acknowledgement of his capture, and the (possible) arrangement of his release. He would also, as a senior officer, have had his share of difficult decisions. As soon as he was captured, he became one of those difficult decisions. Admittedly, he cannot have known it would take eight years to resolve, but he would have understood the bones of the problem all the same.

For Harry’s part, he had to function as an authority figure for a man whose perception of authority had more than likely undergone something of a reinvention. He also had to find sufficient confidence to provide leadership against a background of Lucas’ confusion and his own assumed betrayal of Lucas. Almost the most important element of this leadership, I suspect, would have been the uncompromising treatment of Lucas as A. N. Other officer. In exactly the same way as MI5 cannot cultivate sympathy for, or empathy with, assets, I suspect Harry knows it would be operationally foolhardy to look at Lucas as being anything other than one of several valuable officers. If Lucas is going to return to work, it has to be because he is capable of returning to work. Harry should not have to look after him.

(06-12-2010 02:36 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  The Harry/Lucas relationship had been alluded to in previous series. For example Ros (s7)stated 'Harry sweated blood to get (Lucas) back, he'd rather die than let anything happen to Lucas'. Even Sarah (S8) asked what is it between you and Harry. Again it points to the writers not taking on board what had been said in earlier series

^^ This, obviously, with a cherry on top

That line of Ros’ has always made me somewhat uncomfortable. I don’t expect to be shown every detail of every form Harry fills in, or every meeting he sits in, but I would have liked some indication of effort beyond Harry saying to Adam in 7.1 that Lucas is a “prize” of unexpected value in the exchange for the Russian spy.

(06-12-2010 03:28 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  I would agree that the relationship between Harry and Lucas was not developed enough in prior series. This explains to me why Harry's reaction in the interrogation of 9.7 to Lucas telling him about his life as John felt a bit OTT to me.

Harry’s reaction did seem a little sanctimonious, didn’t it? A holier-than-thou reaction which the viewer cannot see as having been earned makes the character displaying that attitude seem rather less sympathetic than their righteous indignation might suggest they have a right to be. One of the consequences of keeping the relationship between Harry and Lucas within the confines of allusion, rather than showing-and-telling, was, unfortunately, that I also had a moment of serious irritation with Harry over the whole “Not you” thing. Where did that come from?

[HellsBells]

Yes Harry should have thrown him in jail at that point because Lucas was in far too deep and needed Harry to help him get out of this situation, even if Lucas didn't realise it at the time. But Harry just let him continue on his own.
I would have moaned that Harry didn't give Lucas a second chance, sure, but Harry should have protected Lucas more.

[Silktie]

I think placing the blame on Harry for what happened to Lucas is a very one-sided argument. How was Harry supposed to protect Lucas when he didn't know what was going on? And the reason he didn't know was because Lucas lied to him. When he confronts Lucas in 9.7, Harry only knows that there is another Lucas North, and both were in Dakar. At no point did Lucas tell him about Maya, and that Vaughn was using her to manipulate him to get the Albany file. At no point did Lucas tell Harry about Albany. Maybe, if Lucas had told the truth about the extent of his complicity in the bombing, and that it was actually he, and not Vaughn, that killed the real Lucas North, Harry would not have let him go and would have locked him up. But Lucas lied to Harry, so Harry had no idea how deep in the doo-doo Lucas was at that point. Are we now blaming Harry for not being able to read Lucas' mind?

And as for blaming him for not acting immediately on Ruth's suspicions - before this season people were always complaining that Harry didn't give Lucas the trust he deserved. So when he gives Lucas the benefit of the doubt and tries to establish the true facts before acting, people now blame him for that. Well, you can't have it both ways.

I'm not saying Harry never made mistakes with Lucas, he is only human after all. But he's Lucas' boss, not his psychologist, or his buddy, or his father. That relationship comes with its own boundaries, and it's not fair to expect Harry to move those boundaries when he's not even aware of what's going on. Probably the biggest mistake Harry made with Lucas, was to allow him back on the team after his return from Russia. He should have known that Lucas was probably too damaged by that experience, but he gave in to Lucas' own pleas to be let back on the team. So if anything, he's been too soft with Lucas.

[BravoNine]

(06-12-2010 06:42 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I think placing the blame on Harry for what happened to Lucas is a very one-sided argument. How was Harry supposed to protect Lucas when he didn't know what was going on? And the reason he didn't know was because Lucas lied to him. When he confronts Lucas in 9.7, Harry only knows that there is another Lucas North, and both were in Dakar. At no point did Lucas tell him about Maya, and that Vaughn was using her to manipulate him to get the Albany file. At no point did Lucas tell Harry about Albany. Maybe, if Lucas had told the truth about the extent of his complicity in the bombing, and that it was actually he, and not Vaughn, that killed the real Lucas North, Harry would not have let him go and would have locked him up. But Lucas lied to Harry, so Harry had no idea how deep in the doo-doo Lucas was at that point. Are we now blaming Harry for not being able to read Lucas' mind?

I don't necessarily blame Harry for letting Lucas go in 9.7, although I wish he had just locked Lucas up, it would have turned out better for everyone. But as you said, Harry is not a mind-reader, he wanted to trust Lucas and give him a chance, but I guess in that trust, he gave Lucas the rope to hang himself in 9.8 with all the cat-mouse mess. It's a rather double-edged sword at this point.

I think I blame more to the writers for not writing it well enough, I mean, why did Lucas look shocked at Vaughn's words about the truth of what happened at Dakar? Why did Vaughn say the killer is awake? It just all seemed muddled and I wished there was a more clear explanation.

(06-12-2010 06:42 PM)Silktie Wrote:  And as for blaming him for not acting immediately on Ruth's suspicions - before this season people were always complaining that Harry didn't give Lucas the trust he deserved. So when he gives Lucas the benefit of the doubt and tries to establish the true facts before acting, people now blame him for that. Well, you can't have it both ways.

I don't blame him for that either, in fact, I was glad that for once Harry seems to put trust on Lucas (although this time it's not deserved).

(06-12-2010 06:42 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm not saying Harry never made mistakes with Lucas, he is only human after all. But he's Lucas' boss, not his psychologist, or his buddy, or his father. That relationship comes with its own boundaries, and it's not fair to expect Harry to move those boundaries when he's not even aware of what's going on. Probably the biggest mistake Harry made with Lucas, was to allow him back on the team after his return from Russia. He should have known that Lucas was probably too damaged by that experience, but he gave in to Lucas' own pleas to be let back on the team. So if anything, he's been too soft with Lucas.

You are right, Harry is not his buddy or father or psychologist, but any good boss in that line of business should know when his own team is in trouble, after all as team leader, isn't his job to make sure his team is ready? If Lucas hadn't pointed it out about Jo, Harry would not have noticed that she's still shaken up by her own traumatic experiences. I understand that Harry isn't the whole touchy-feely kind of person, and I respect that, for that matter, neither is Lucas, so I'm not expecting them to cry on each other's shoulders, but Harry should be observant enough to know when his own team is going out of whack. Maybe he is too trusting, maybe he just expects too much from the team, maybe that's what one has to do in this line of business, but after the numerous breakdowns this team has suffered, one would think Harry would keep a closer eye on his agents.

Harry himself said that he is responsible for Lucas's physical and mental well-being, so while he is simply the boss, he himself admits that he is in some way shape or form, in charge of looking out for Lucas.

Does this whole blame fall on Harry? Of course not, both Lucas and Harry equally shares the responsibility for this train-wreck.

I think my anger more comes from 9.8 and this whole cat-mouse game. I understand Harry is a man about his job, and I respect him for that, I wouldn't expect it any other way. He has to make hard decisions and risk lives as collateral damage. So in the end, it was Lucas, Maya, and Albany for Ruth's life. Yes Lucas wouldn't be one to listen to reason at that point and Harry's job is to his country, but for a man who claims to be responsible for Lucas and seemingly wants to get him out of trouble, his tone was insincere and his actions speaks volumes that clearly Lucas is not his top priority. And really, was Harry's words on that roof top really the best way to go? Push a man who's already teetering over the edge into breaking apart?

It's really more of the roof top that pissed me off more than anything else. Just Harry's whole righteous tone and "regnum defende, whatever the cost", it's no wonder Lucas smacked him. Harry had stood there and said words that he knew would push Lucas's already fragile psyche spinning into the abyss and he did nothing to stop it. Sure he said he wants to help, but it was too little too late.

To be honest, I think I'm just bitter, Lucas came through for Harry in Moscow with the whole Sugar-Horse thing when Harry needed him the most. He risked his life, his sanity, and his career simply because Harry asked him. And now when Lucas needed someone to pull him back from the edge, Harry simply gave a few tugs and let go. He chose the job over the person he supposedly felt "responsible" for. I guess I'm just not happy with that.

But really, as much as my heart simply blames Harry for not trying hard enough, the real culprit is really the writers. They took was could have been a complicated and intriguing relationship between a mentor and his prodigy and twisted it and muddled it to the point where it just doesn't even make sense anymore. The bond between those two was never explained and so many great opportunities are now lost forever.

So to be really fair, this really isn't Harry or Lucas's fault as much as it falls squarely on the shoulders of the writers.

[DogSoSmall]

I completely agree, this is unquestionably a matter of very poor writing. You just can't delve into these complicated, psychological studies of relationships unless you have a clear idea about the motives of your characters. Intelligent viewers like to be given the chance to work things out for themselves without having it all spelled out on the screen, but you look at the intelligent people on here left bemused trying to look for a credible explanation for the end of series 9 and failing because, frankly, the credible explanation simply doesn't exist. I think sometimes the writers believe their own press: "Spooks. Oh yes, I rarely understand what they're talking about, but the whole family loves it". They have taken this to extremes and been very lazy in assuming people will just accept that they haven't understood, but it was no doubt all very clever. I feel really sorry for the actors, particularly Richard Armitage but also Peter Firth. They believe they are developing a character one way and then are faced with a script that must seem as unbelievable to them as it does to us, and they have to try and make us believe it. RA and PF did an incredible job under the circumstances, proved by the fact that people are still discussing it instead of just dropping the whole thing in disgust. It doesn't bode well for series 10 though. If they keep the same writers and let them think they have got away with this shoddy work, god knows what they'll have them all doing on the grid next year. I thought PF (god of the micro-expression) looked a bit peeved about the whole thing this time around. Can't say I blame him.

[BravoNine]

(07-12-2010 12:34 AM)DogSoSmall Wrote:  I thought PF (god of the micro-expression) looked a bit peeved about the whole thing this time around. Can't say I blame him.

LOL I thought he was peeved because Lucas kidnapped Ruth...

But yeah, I agree. I remember RA saying that he keeps like a small diary of all these little backstories and notes for Lucas he has over the years he is playing the characters, that must have been a shock to him to be playing the character one way for so many years and then being handed a script that says, "here you go, you're not Lucas North"

I think RA's first impression of the script says it all "What?"

I get that Spooks never dwells so much on personal histories and relationships, but when a script like this calls for a struggle of beliefs and faith between two characters like Harry and Lucas, the lack of exploration between the two crumbles the foundation of this storyline.

RA and PF did the best they can to make these characters believable but the writers failed to provide a logical and meaningful backdrop for these characters to have a final confrontation.

[A Cousin]

Back onto Harry and Lucas topic and not the writers screwed it up topic.... ()

(06-12-2010 11:40 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  You are right, Harry is not his buddy or father or psychologist, but any good boss in that line of business should know when his own team is in trouble, after all as team leader, isn't his job to make sure his team is ready?

As Silktie mentions, perhaps THAT was the real starting point - Harry letting Lucas come back in the first place knowing how damaged he was? It certainly would explain why they always seem wary of each other.

(06-12-2010 11:40 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Harry himself said that he is responsible for Lucas's physical and mental well-being, so while he is simply the boss, he himself admits that he is in some way shape or form, in charge of looking out for Lucas.

Which I think is Harry placing an unrealistic amount of responsibility on his own shoulders.

(06-12-2010 11:40 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Yes Lucas wouldn't be one to listen to reason at that point and Harry's job is to his country, but for a man who claims to be responsible for Lucas and seemingly wants to get him out of trouble, his tone was insincere and his actions speaks volumes that clearly Lucas is not his top priority. And really, was Harry's words on that roof top really the best way to go? Push a man who's already teetering over the edge into breaking apart?

It's really more of the roof top that pissed me off more than anything else. Just Harry's whole righteous tone and "regnum defende, whatever the cost", it's no wonder Lucas smacked him. Harry had stood there and said words that he knew would push Lucas's already fragile psyche spinning into the abyss and he did nothing to stop it. Sure he said he wants to help, but it was too little too late.

Lucas didn't smack him after his "regnum defende, whatever the cost" line, I believe Lucas smacked him after Harry tried to find some common ground in pointing out that he is doing it for love as well. I think Harry fully expected to die on that roof (even if we knew he probably would not) and was trying to either expedite the process or since those were his last moments, had no reason to couch them in anything but brutally exposed honesty. He had no expectation of saving Lucas or himself in that moment.

I agree with the idea that by the time they got to the rooftop scene, it was too little, too late. The jig was up and there was no turning back. I don't think there was a damn thing Harry could have said or done to or for Lucas in that moment that would have saved both of their lives, and Harry knew that. Lucas chose to take his own life rather than Harry's. Harry had tried giving Lucas a chance to redeem himself, against his (Harry's) better judgement, which Lucas chose to piss away.