Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[Byatil]

If that were the case though, why would Lucas be so obviously emotionally involved? Surely 6 would have had some correspondence with him if this had been planned, and from the way RA acted the part (and indeed, the way the character was presumably written), I'm unsure as to why Lucas would have cared so much about Vaughn and Maya, and why exactly he would have allowed Maya to have been put in that situation if he did indeed care for her? Even if she was a woman he didn't know, we have already learnt that Lucas can have a great deal of compassion for relative strangers (Dean's death - Lucas appeared rather distraught), so it would make little sense for him to allow a woman to die simply so he could return to Russia (which I also don't understand why he would want to do?); the country where he was captured and held for 8 years previously. It just doesn't make much sense to me that he would ever agree to go undercover in Moscow if he thought there would be a significant element of danger to the job - and if we assume that S9 was all an enormous cover-up, then it seems strange that he would agree to give up his job at MI5 to work for 6 instead?

I personally think that he didn't shoot himself because the script needed to allow him a chance to come back, and because RA had previously said he'd like to "leave quietly". Shooting yourself in the head isn't the most silent of deaths

It's a nice theory, but it just doesn't hold much water for me. Sorry!

[harrbd]

There seems a few episodes of Spooks which don't add up and are never resolved. (I never understood why Angela, the spy gone bad, didn't shoot Harry before throwing herself off the roof. - sound familiar?!)

I actually think we may not know about Lucas at the start of s10. The HS said in his phone call to Harry "this business with your section chief" which could mean he jumped or got away. As we missed 48 hrs of the aftermath we may not get it covered in the new series. I think that time will have moved on and any mention of Lucas will be ambiguous.

This way it can be left open for RA to return or not. He did say that he was keen that they made a Spooks film.

On the Nightingale note it did lead to one of Ruth's well expressed comments - She told Harry that the HS had died of a heart attack. Harry said something like "how sad" and Ruth said "not really"

[HellsBells]

(10-12-2010 08:14 PM)Byatil Wrote:  It's a nice theory, but it just doesn't hold much water for me. Sorry!

My theory of MI6 involvement would have started back in Dakar, when John was recruited by Vaughn, MI6 could then have used him as an asset. The bomb could have been an accident, denoted while being defused? John faked Lucas's death to keep in with Vaughn and MI6 then helped John become Lucas North (altering records etc), who remainder a sleeper for Six. When Vaughn reappeared Lucas would have been activated again. Lucas would have to fall in love with Maya because that is what Vaughn would expect. And because the Chinese were watching it had to be convincing.
There is of course a big whole in this theory......why would MI6 want the Chinese to have Albany? Could it have contained some sort of Trojan to infect Chinese computers?

[BoHenley]

I love this, HellsBells. And it opens and interesting thought that several others have brought up - what happened to the "real" Lucas North's body? Isn't it odd that no-one noticed that one person was missing (either John or the real Lucas)? We only have Lucas/John's and Vaughan's word that he was killed, and as they're both liars (if we swallow the S9 storyline) then the "real" Lucas may be alive (and in hiding). Okay, it's straw-clutching, but hey, with MI6 involved it could work. Then the writers could bring in an operative from MI6 to "take over" MI5 with Harry temporarily under investigation. Resentment, hatred, antagonism, conflict...I love it!

The Albany file infecting the Chinese intelligence computers would work as a storyline too. Send this off to Kudos, HellsBells.

[HellsBells]

Thank you BoHenley, glad you think it could work. I'd love to write it as a fanfic but I lack the talent (and the time).

[Byatil]

(11-12-2010 06:29 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  

(10-12-2010 08:14 PM)Byatil Wrote:  It's a nice theory, but it just doesn't hold much water for me. Sorry!

My theory of MI6 involvement would have started back in Dakar, when John was recruited by Vaughn, MI6 could then have used him as an asset. The bomb could have been an accident, denoted while being defused? John faked Lucas's death to keep in with Vaughn and MI6 then helped John become Lucas North (altering records etc), who remainder a sleeper for Six. When Vaughn reappeared Lucas would have been activated again. Lucas would have to fall in love with Maya because that is what Vaughn would expect. And because the Chinese were watching it had to be convincing.
There is of course a big whole in this theory......why would MI6 want the Chinese to have Albany? Could it have contained some sort of Trojan to infect Chinese computers?

But then we'd have to believe that Lucas was an incredible actor in order to fool MI5 for all those years In terms of his characters emotional development, surely he would have grown very attached to his team in MI5, which doesn't entirely explain why he would have used Ruth in the way he did? I suppose it could be seen as a final "fuck you" directed towards Harry, but all his issues with Harry would have developed post-Dakar. If it was all an elaborate act, surely we would have seen Lucas grappling with his conscience, and surely he wouldn't have allowed himself to be so emotionally involved with his colleagues or work?

I can see why it would potentially work but I think it would require a great leap of faith from the viewers in order to make it believable. Then again, I suppose after the Lucas-is-John plot we should be ready for anything the writers my throw at us!

[HellsBells]

In the scenes with Ruth, he still cared for her, he even placed a blanket down for her and I don't personally believe he would have hurt her, he could, at any point, call an ambulance for her. He was doing what was necessary to obtain Albany and who told Lucas that Harry had Albany anyway? And after 15 years he probably believed that Vaughn was not coming back and therefore allowed himself to become attached to his team.
He clearly didn't want to give in to Vaughn so why did he? He could have simply killed him and carried on with his life which what someone like John would have done, but Lucas didn't.
As for Harry, could MI6 prove that Harry was responsible for his incarceration in Russian? I believe that would turn Lucas against Harry.

Great leap of faith?? Practically a whole chasm-worth.......

[BravoNine]

Re-watching this episode is like watching the sinking of the Titanic....

You know this complete crash and wreck is coming, like a hurtling fright train, but you can't get out of the way. The finale of Series 9 is like a disaster zone of a crash.

I just can't see that Lucas would turn his loyalty against Harry and suddenly decide to put his team at risk, especially when throughout the series, he took in Beth and Dimitri, he looked out for Ruth during ops, he made sure Dimitri got out of the Chinese embassy safely, and he was always there to back up Harry.

The writers made it seem like Lucas had been lying to everyone all along, and I simply refuse to believe that.

[conniesachs]

I thought my fantasy of Lucas being being aided and abetted by MI6 to fake his death so he could join them was a private one but it's nice to know others have been thinking along the same lines.
Like HellsBells I also wondered (in one of my many theories) if he was involved with MI6 back in 1995 in Dakar, but my take on it was that he was an MI6 agent, sent to Dakar to investigate Vaughan Edwards and find out what he was up to; gun-running/drug-trafficking/spying, using the cover of John Bateman, a failed drug runner short of money who works at the casino he frequents. The plan works and John is recruited by Vaughan, but before he can discover what he is up to disaster strikes when the briefcase John has left in the British Embassy blows up. In the circumstances bringing back into MI6 isn't a good idea but the security services don't want to lose what had been up to then a good operative so he joins MI5 as Lucas North, with only Harry knowing he is really seconded from 6.
So his real name is neither John Bateman or Lucas North.
Oh and I love HellsBells idea that Albany contained some sort of computer virus.

[BoHenley]

Works for me.