Lucas North Speculation

[BravoNine]

(23-12-2010 09:51 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well, it is arguable that he shouldn't have been allowed back after his stint in Russia Obviously Harry has the ability to bend the rules when it suits him, but I doubt he'd be so lenient again after the way Lucas acted.

Well, one could also argue, when he came back from Russia, he at least acted like a normal functioning human being despite being damaged, but Series 9 had him gone completely loco, that's the issue. One could still work after being traumatized, but could one still work after being manipulated to believe you are a different person and completely turn against and hurt the people you've swore your own life to protect?

Harry may have let Lucas return after 8 years in Russia, but returning to the Grid after this JB incident, I'd be surprised if Lucas's head hasn't turned to mush already.

[Byatil]

(23-12-2010 10:21 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(23-12-2010 09:51 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well, it is arguable that he shouldn't have been allowed back after his stint in Russia Obviously Harry has the ability to bend the rules when it suits him, but I doubt he'd be so lenient again after the way Lucas acted.

Well, one could also argue, when he came back from Russia, he at least acted like a normal functioning human being despite being damaged, but Series 9 had him gone completely loco, that's the issue. One could still work after being traumatized, but could one still work after being manipulated to believe you are a different person and completely turn against and hurt the people you've swore your own life to protect?

Harry may have let Lucas return after 8 years in Russia, but returning to the Grid after this JB incident, I'd be surprised if Lucas's head hasn't turned to mush already.

Well yes, that's exactly my point. Surely Lucas would be far too emotionally damaged to ever entertain the idea of going back to work? Unless we're fed some bizarre "and it was all a dream..." scenario in S10!

I'd love to see his character return, but I can't see how he could ever go back to working full-time as a member of Section D. Perhaps he might have some useful intel which could be coerced out of him (unlikely though, if we're going along with the manipulation theory), but after that he'd probably be locked away in the loony bin!

Although actually, at this point, I'm not sure I'd care how unbelievable the plot would have to be for the writers to bring Lucas back. Can we just erase the events of S9 from the shows history, please?

[BravoNine]

(23-12-2010 11:45 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well yes, that's exactly my point. Surely Lucas would be far too emotionally damaged to ever entertain the idea of going back to work? Unless we're fed some bizarre "and it was all a dream..." scenario in S10!

Technically he IS too emotionally damaged to ever return to work, but will HE think so?

I would actually be amused by a dream scenario, I'd actually like that.

(23-12-2010 11:45 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I'd love to see his character return, but I can't see how he could ever go back to working full-time as a member of Section D. Perhaps he might have some useful intel which could be coerced out of him (unlikely though, if we're going along with the manipulation theory), but after that he'd probably be locked away in the loony bin!

Maybe a storyline of Harry actually standing up and taking responsibility of actually looking after Lucas instead of just locking him away to loony bin? Especially if this was all a manipulation trick to bring down Harry and MI5.

(23-12-2010 11:45 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Can we just erase the events of S9 from the shows history, please?

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly!!!

[Nietzsche]

[BravoNine]

(26-12-2010 09:17 AM)Nietzsche Wrote:  The mere thought of his memory being dragged to the mud mskes me very unhappy, to say the least.

Trust me, I feel the same. It just makes me sick to my stomach, and it's not the good kind of "OMG this is such a sad yet amazing storyline" sickness in my gut that I had watching Torchwood: Children of Earth, instead it's the "Oh god this is a load of crap" sickness.

Lucas came through so many times for his team, his loyalty was so clear, and if it wasn't for Lucas, Harry wouldn't even be standing here alive. And now I have to stand there and watch them drag a GOOD man's reputation and memory through the mud and tear it apart to make him into a monster? I won't stand for that.

[binkie]

I’m afraid the current writing team believes it has already served the Lucas redemption theme. A classical interpretation of the tone of the retcon done on this character suggests the writers of season 9 would like us to accept Lucas North as the pivot of both the damnation and the salvation of John Bateman. John’s damnation is guaranteed by his murder of Lucas North, but he pursues his own redemption in the decision to become the man he has killed. John is, for the writers of season 9, a warrior eating the heart of his enemy, thereby becoming the thing he has destroyed, and taking on the admirable qualities of the worthy adversary. It’s not a terribly original approach, but it is an undeniably potent one.

I’m not suggesting it works in terms of narrative or character coherence, but it is what we have been given, and it is what season 10 is going to have to deal with (if it even bothers to return at all to the character of Lucas as anything other than a problem for Harry).

[BravoNine]

(26-12-2010 05:12 PM)binkie Wrote:  I’m afraid the current writing team believes it has already served the Lucas redemption theme. A classical interpretation of the tone of the retcon done on this character suggests the writers of season 9 would like us to accept Lucas North as the pivot of both the damnation and the salvation of John Bateman. John’s damnation is guaranteed by his murder of Lucas North, but he pursues his own redemption in the decision to become the man he has killed. John is, for the writers of season 9, a warrior eating the heart of his enemy, thereby becoming the thing he has destroyed, and taking on the admirable qualities of the worthy adversary. It’s not a terribly original approach, but it is an undeniably potent one.

That idea would actually be really really cool and would have worked amazingly if they actually had writers who knew how to handle such a storyline without dropping a million plot-holes at every corner.

I do congratulate the writers on being able to make everyone in the show appear incredibly stupid! Because really, the level of stupidity exhibited by these characters and "intelligence" agencies was something I had not seen before! Good for them!

[binkie]

(26-12-2010 08:04 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(26-12-2010 05:12 PM)binkie Wrote:  I’m afraid the current writing team believes it has already served the Lucas redemption theme. A classical interpretation of the tone of the retcon done on this character suggests the writers of season 9 would like us to accept Lucas North as the pivot of both the damnation and the salvation of John Bateman. John’s damnation is guaranteed by his murder of Lucas North, but he pursues his own redemption in the decision to become the man he has killed. John is, for the writers of season 9, a warrior eating the heart of his enemy, thereby becoming the thing he has destroyed, and taking on the admirable qualities of the worthy adversary. It’s not a terribly original approach, but it is an undeniably potent one.

That idea would actually be really really cool and would have worked amazingly if they actually had writers who knew how to handle such a storyline without dropping a million plot-holes at every corner.

I do congratulate the writers on being able to make everyone in the show appear incredibly stupid! Because really, the level of stupidity exhibited by these characters and "intelligence" agencies was something I had not seen before! Good for them!

I quite agree that they have done it badly (and entirely without due care and attention), but I do think they genuinely believe this is what they have done.

The plot holes - my God! the plot holes - are, indeed, an indication of the failure properly to invest in the telling of the story. It looks as though the script meetings stopped at the point at which there was general agreement that a cool idea had been had and failed to resume at any point at which consideration could be given as to how the cool idea might be executed. Can it really have been so difficult to have scheduled even a short discussion of the mechanism by which the central contrivance of an entire season's worth of prime time drama might have been sustained over fifteen years?!

[ignatz]

(26-12-2010 05:12 PM)binkie Wrote:  John’s damnation is guaranteed by his murder of Lucas North, but he pursues his own redemption in the decision to become the man he has killed. John is, for the writers of season 9, a warrior eating the heart of his enemy, thereby becoming the thing he has destroyed, and taking on the admirable qualities of the worthy adversary. It’s not a terribly original approach, but it is an undeniably potent one.

I've enjoyed reading the discussion on this topic, despite coming on board rather late in the game.

I've thought about this quite a bit since watching the final episode and what Binkie has to say fits in with my thoughts. I think that John/Lucas found something in the MI5 life he borrowed that gave him purpose and the chance to "do something" that he had longed for. He immersed himself in it and whether for the noble aim of "making a pact" with the real Lucas each day or simply because it suited him, he *became* the person he wanted to be. So much so that he refused to let go of it even during years of horrific torture. When Vaughan returns and says, to paraphrase, that Lucas is a killer who went to sleep and dreamed he was a hero -- that is a perfect way of putting it.

I believe that once Vaughan turned up Lucas realized the life he made for himself was slipping away and was desperate to do something, anything to keep that from happening, even if it meant doing things we'd never imagine "our" Lucas doing. I believe at this point he began to have a psychotic break. Remember, this is someone who endured years in prison to maintain his MI5 life. Fearing a return to pointless ruthlessness he'd had during his time with Vaughan, he began to fixate on his earlier history, before he was tainted or "went bad." This is why he glommed onto Maya, although it was clear there was no chemistry there at all. "I fixed things," he tells her.

I think the writers definitely erred in having her essentially be a plot device who asked only token questions, etc. But for a man in the midst of a terrifying meltdown, with the memories he has & the threat he was facing, his reverting to this non-Lucasy "John" makes a lot of sense. NOT THAT I LIKED IT. But I do think that to some extent it makes sense.

It is unfair the writers took him down this road. But these are the people who blew Adam Carter up, left Zaf in the hands of certain death and had Danny shot. People don't get what they "deserve" on this show. It's just how it is :/

Thanks for being here to let me share. I haven't anyone to discuss these things with "in real life," so it was a relief to find a venue where people were/are wrestling with their disappointment.

To speculate on next season ... I think Lucas is dead and we won't see him return. But I do hope that some of what I'm speculating is realized by the team, we see them wrestling with their feelings (to some extent, because the show really can't keep focusing on Lucas) and that they accord him some respect for the good he did with the team. I don't know if he can be forgiven for what came before, though.

[BravoNine]

I do think that the psychological breakdown of what happened with Lucas/John is not hard to believe, in fact, it is incredibly intriguing to watch. That is not where my issues lie in.

What made this story not work was the technical aspects, how the writers built the foundations and explanations. It was weak, patchy, and convoluted. Actions and dialogs often contradicted one another.

Quote:It is unfair the writers took him down this road. But these are the people who blew Adam Carter up, left Zaf in the hands of certain death and had Danny shot. People don't get what they "deserve" on this show.

I don't have an issue that this show kills off characters, it has been the way of Spooks for a long time. But what the writers did with Adam, Zaf, or Danny is not the same as Lucas. The other three died doing their jobs, they died loyal to their teammates, loyal to their country, and all of them knew the risks and consequences of the choices they made and understood that they could die in the line of duty.

What happened with Lucas was not "in the line of duty", this was essentially obliterating the memory of someone who in almost every way, always protected his team, always was loyal, and always was dependable in a crisis. They tore all that up and turned him into a crazy schizo-freak.

And I'm not saying that was wrong, but the unfair part comes from the fact that everyone else who died, even Connie, died for something good. Lucas is the one tossed to the curb. Not that it isn't interesting to watch, but the glaring plot-holes did not help this story any better than making people confused and angry.

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As for speculation, to be honest, Lucas probably is dead, and anyways, RA has moved onto better things, at least the writers of the Hobbit will treat his character with more respect than the mess the writers of Series 9 did with Lucas.

No doubt the higher-ups at MI5 will drag Lucas's name through the mud despite everything he has done, and that's gonna make me sick to watch.