Plot-holes

[BoHenley]

Yes, that would be the line, HellsBells, but if that's an explanation...

[BravoNine]

(04-03-2011 09:03 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  Yes, that would be the line, HellsBells, but if that's an explanation...

More and more I hear the commentaries, the poor pissed I get, how could they not even bother to map out properly or explain the most IMPORTANT central piece of this whole entire story??!?!?!?

I mean, seriously, this whole thing rests on John Bateman supposedly getting into MI5, yet they never bother to explain how, and whatever explanation they actually had was pathetic and glossed over....and then to have the nerves in commentaries to just say that they thought it was an interesting idea?

How can this show possibly be considered a credible good quality show anymore when the writers/producers don't even bother to think actual decent explanation to storylines?

I have just lost complete faith in this show....

[WhiteSwan]

(04-03-2011 02:15 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Interestingly in 9.7 commentary the writer Anthony Neilson says he never wrote the part where we actually see Lucas/John detonate the bomb, that was added afterwards. He thought that if he had written it he would have wanted more of an explanation as to Lucas' thinking about what he was doing. The Executive Producer, Andrew Woodhead, said it was explained in the next episode, 9.8, on the roof scene with Harry. I think, 'it made me feel like someone', is a bit short of an explanation!

I've always felt that this "explanation" was one of the most pathetic motives I've ever heard or read or seen anywhere. Or the most sarcastic. Because it basically says "If you have low self-esteem, if you aren't as self-confident as you would like to be, just kill a substantial number of innocent people and you will feel much better!"
As I haven't bought the DVDs and have not intention of doing so I have to rely on other people telling me a bit more about the extras and commentaries. Is it really true that the writers/producers couldn't give an explanation about how JB was able to fool MI5? That they just thought it was an interesting idea and that these things could happen? Was there any explanation as to why both JB and Lucas obviously had no family or friends to enquire after them? Why apparently not even Maya had made any inquiries? Ok, she wasn't the kind of person to be bothered by anything, but still...
And did RA really use the tattoo on his chest to explain the somehow extraordinary personality of JB/LN? I can remember that in one of the many interviews he gave he said something like "It depicts God as the architect and it's a reminder to Lucas he cannot construct his own destiny". This sentence has always annoyed me quite a bit, because it just seemed to be a cheap excuse for all the crimes JB ever committed (or in fact the crimes anybody ever committed). If that statement was true it would mean no-one does anything out of a free will and so no-one could be held responsible. So everybody raping a woman, abusing children, killing out of hatred, killing out of religious reasons, killing to get a bit more self-esteem, torturing people for the fun of it, they all could claim that it had not been their fault, because God had constructed their destiny. But that would have been true for someone like Connie as well and Lucas (the real one) certainly did not react in a way saying "Oh, it doesn't matter. You just can't construct your own destiny and so you couldn't help betraying your country." Which shows that the real Lucas of S7 and S8 has absolutely nothing to do with JB.

[binkie]

(04-03-2011 02:15 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Interestingly in 9.7 commentary the writer Anthony Neilson says he never wrote the part where we actually see Lucas/John detonate the bomb, that was added afterwards. He thought that if he had written it he would have wanted more of an explanation as to Lucas' thinking about what he was doing. The Executive Producer, Andrew Woodhead, said it was explained in the next episode, 9.8, on the roof scene with Harry. I think, 'it made me feel like someone', is a bit short of an explanation!

Well, that's just depressing


"It made me feel like someone" doesn't even make sense in the context of John as we are supposed to accept him in his personal chronology in Dakar, anyway. As far as I remember, he is less concerned with personal destiny than he is with getting back to England and renewing his romance-of-the-ages with Maya. Vaughan even makes a point of reiterating the repetitive nature of John's conversation, and his one-track obsession with this woman who is, apparently, "the one".

I can understand that a producer might be more alive to the need for bigger-picture storytelling and arresting narrative devices, rather than academic attention to narrative logic. However, from the way you describe it, this comes across as mean-spirited and dismissive on the production side. Not allowing the writer of the episode in which a pivotal event occurs to have a hand in describing that event seems - for want of a better word - unfair. Or maybe I'm too much of a meritocrat for a proper appreciation of the realities of writing for television.

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(04-03-2011 11:55 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  So everybody raping a woman, abusing children, killing out of hatred, killing out of religious reasons, killing to get a bit more self-esteem, torturing people for the fun of it, they all could claim that it had not been their fault, because God had constructed their destiny.

And people do claim this in defence of actions like the ones you describe. In philosophical terms, this is referred to as 'hard determinism': the suggestion that free will is an illusion and that all decisive actions are merely the consequence of other instructive actions over which the individual has no functional control. This argument is the reason for the existence in law of the tenet which holds that if an individual carries out an act, knowing the character or quality of the act to be wrong, that individual can be held responsible for their actions.

[xRuthx]

The more I think about episodes 9.7 and 8 especially, the more contradictions there are for me in the John/Lucas storyline.

[BravoNine]

(07-03-2011 05:47 AM)xRuthx Wrote:  The more I think about episodes 9.7 and 8 especially, the more contradictions there are for me in the John/Lucas storyline.

Sad that at this point, I don't even want to think about it anymore, the writers took what could have been one of their best stories and dumped it down a toilet drain.

They trashed this story, and if it wasn't for the amazing performances from Richard Armitage, Peter Firth, and Nicola Walker, no one would have even cared. The actors were the sole saving grace of a storyline that made absolutely no sense and completely shameful!

The fact that they never bothered to try and think of a decent explanation is just reprehensible and disgusting.

[xRuthx]

To be absolutely honest with you, if it wasn't for Nicola still being in the cast I probably wouldn't bother to watch series ten.

See, as a writer myself, I don't think it matters how good an actor is. Bad writing is bad writing and I can't believe how many Spooks viewers just seem to accept the Lucas storyline because it was acted well. I wonder how many fans would insist the Lucas storyline made perfect sense if it had been Ruth with the double identity and the bombing of an embassy. (I obv. am glad this didn't happen. I love Ruth. She's my favourite Spooks character but still... I wonder what difference in reaction there would have been...)

Incidentally, I havent been so annoyed by a plot developement since the finale of Robin Hood series two also starring poor Richard Armitage (though at least that time it wasn't him who was out of character. It was kind of funny when series three of RH did poorly because at the time of the series two furore the writers claimed it was a good move dramatically to do what they did with the characters and would allow the show to grow )

I'm hoping series ten picks up and doesn't do a Dr Who: The End of Time (I'm still trying to pretend that never happened lol).

[BravoNine]

(07-03-2011 06:15 AM)xRuthx Wrote:  See, as a writer myself, I don't think it matters how good an actor is. Bad writing is bad writing and I can't believe how many Spooks viewers just seem to accept the Lucas storyline because it was acted well. I wonder how many fans would insist the Lucas storyline made perfect sense if it had been Ruth with the double identity and the bombing of an embassy. (I obv. am glad this didn't happen. I love Ruth. She's my favourite Spooks character but still... I wonder what difference in reaction there would have been...)

It's not that people accept it, and believe me, lots of people don't accept it, but at this point there's nothing we can do about it, so we deal with it.

I'm a writer myself, and this storyline never made any sense to me, I put up with it because at least the actors still make me care about the characters and there are still moments when watching I am drawn in by their performances. But afterwards, the writing just makes me wanna tear my hair out and go after those writers with a baseball bat.

The most important part of this story they never bothered to explain properly, it's lazy writing at its best, and completely dumb and stupid at its worst.

(07-03-2011 06:15 AM)xRuthx Wrote:  I'm hoping series ten picks up and doesn't do a Dr Who: The End of Time (I'm still trying to pretend that never happened lol).

I like Dr. Who: End of Time, that was a dramatic ending that I loved a lot. I don't try to watch too many times because then I'd just start crying because I miss David Tennant's Doctor.

Anyways, that writing was leagues way better than anything Spooks Series 9 was able to cook up.

For a show that's so focused on realism, Spooks took the most stupid and most unrealistic route. It's shameful. At least with Doctor Who, it can claim the sci-fi route, Spooks can't even do that as it always claims to be so realistic and serious.

[xRuthx]

(07-03-2011 06:25 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  It's not that people accept it, and believe me, lots of people don't accept it, but at this point there's nothing we can do about it, so we deal with it.

I'm a writer myself, and this storyline never made any sense to me, I put up with it because at least the actors still make me care about the characters and there are still moments when watching I am drawn in by their performances. But afterwards, the writing just makes me wanna tear my hair out and go after those writers with a baseball bat.

The most important part of this story they never bothered to explain properly, it's lazy writing at its best, and completely dumb and stupid at its worst.

I like Dr. Who: End of Time, that was a dramatic ending that I loved a lot. I don't try to watch too many times because then I'd just start crying because I miss David Tennant's Doctor.

Anyways, that writing was leagues way better than anything Spooks Series 9 was able to cook up.

For a show that's so focused on realism, Spooks took the most stupid and most unrealistic route. It's shameful. At least with Doctor Who, it can claim the sci-fi route, Spooks can't even do that as it always claims to be so realistic and serious.

Oh I wasn't talking about you in that above statement but rather those people who say things along the lines of 'it doesn't matter that Lucas was badly written because it was well acted' because to me that just gives the writer's the message that we don't care what they do as long as it gets a cheap emotional kick at the time and therefore they can keep on in the same writing vein for series ten (which I really, really, really do not want!)

I understand that lots of people liked TEOT but two of my favourite characters got decimated and it broke my heart alot and it makes the episodes really hard for me to rewatch Good point about the fact that they can get away with it more because of the sci fi element though. Actually, the start of the series nine with Vaughn and the suitcase mumbo jumbo reminded me alot of LOM and A2A except that LOM and A2A worked precisely because of the fantastical, surrealist elements of the plot, while for me seris nine of Spooks didn't because there was no real plot base for that kind of suspension of belief to work.

My brother and I were discussing this the other day... for a show that has made its reputation on being as real as possible, the writer's have made some very odd choices at various points for Spooks. For me though Lucas/John is the silliest thing since Juliet's rather unexplained reappearance in series six. I'm hoping they'll take it back to a more series sevenish vibe for ten.

[BoHenley]

As a writer too (and a scientist), the writing of Series 9 was plain sloppy. I'd be kicked in the butt if I didn't do my RESEARCH, and research is what they didn't do, just made up a story, crashed bits together to "make it work," then wondered why fans became angry because it made no sense. (I'll put in the usual disclaimer that some parts of it did work, but you know what I mean).

I hope they won't make this stupid mistake in S10, or I WILL be tuning out.