Plot-holes

[xRuthx]

^Actually I have to disagree with you there. I thought Ruth's developement was spot on (I blame the series eight writers for how they dealt with post George Ruth rather than nine writers in that particular instance) but the Lucas storyline was pants.

I don't ask for "realism" in the living day to day existence of what we know as humans sense- I am intelligent enough to know that my drama is fiction, but the story has to work in the fictional world created. In the Spooksiverse, Jucas cannot work (show me a man or woman who can reconcile coherently Lucas series seven and eight with nine and I'll eat my words gladly) and in fact undermines believability already for series ten. If Jucas can happen with no rhyme or reason why can't Harry the cross dresser? Why can't Ruth the Chinese spy who has been using Harry secretly since series two unbeknowkst to the viewer? The answer is there is no reason it can't and that IS worrying.

I read a blog post that summed it up best. Lucas is forever lost in a post eight black hole because John the cypher took over- a cypher who was never explained, could never be explained because in the world of Spooks as a character written in the way he was, he can never make sense. Perhaps for some viewers this is entirely fine and acting or shock value makes up for a lack of coherent storyline but I am not one of those people and many others arn't also.

[Byatil]

Yes, sorry, I suppose Ruth and Harry had some decent development. It was just Lucas, Dmitri, Beth and Tariq who were never explained very well.

I don't ask for "realism" in the living day to day existence of what we know as humans sense- I am intelligent enough to know that my drama is fiction, but the story has to work in the fictional world created. In the Spooksiverse, Jucas cannot work (show me a man or woman who can reconcile coherently Lucas series seven and eight with nine and I'll eat my words gladly) and in fact undermines believability already for series ten. If Jucas can happen with no rhyme or reason why can't Harry the cross dresser? Why can't Ruth the Chinese spy who has been using Harry secretly since series two unbeknowkst to the viewer? The answer is there is no reason it can't and that IS worrying.
^I completely agree with this; it is worrying. How far will our believability be stretched in the name of "good drama"? Hopefully S10 will be a much stronger series.

[BravoNine]

Lucas wasn't the only one who suffered that issue, take a look at Nicholas Blake the old home secretary. Apparently he was a member of Nightingale who told Harry about Nightingale and led the team on Nightingale's track, got himself removed from office, then cooked up a whole plan to kill the new home secretary, and then of course left a whole lot of breadcrumbs that Ruth magically followed.

Either Blake was the greatest mastermind in the world, or he is the most galactically stupid!!

He knew well of what MI5 and Harry's team was capable of, and of course, he goes to blab to the one group of people on this planet that would rip up Nightingale's plans....unless his plans are that he wants to die....

[NightOwl]

(07-04-2011 11:18 AM)molecatcher Wrote:  I may be in a minority here as someone who just sits back to enjoy the journey, expect the unexpected and revel in the amazing drama that is Spooks but I think you will find over 5 million viewers out there do much the same as me.

So my mistake is to use my brain and think about the show critically? Sorry, don't buy it. If Spooks truly is a wonderful show, if it deserves the word "acclaimed" in every press release, a viewer shouldn't have to turn her brain off for an hour to enjoy it. It's also not an either/or situation. I'd say just the opposite: a truly great show engages the viewer both emotionally and intellectually. Spooks has done that in the past but series 9 was a miserable failure in this regard.

Now you've taken the ride, what's left for you? How will the show hold up after repeated re-watches? After the OMG moments start to affect you less because you know what's coming, how do you think you'll like it? The problem with going for shock is that it really only works once - the first time.

When I first watched Citizen Kane, I was unspoiled for Rosebud so yes, I had a great "OMG, I never would have guessed it" moment. But knowing the identity of Rosebud now enhances the movie when I re-watch it because I understand the character of Charles Foster Kane better. The problem with Albany is that it doesn't enhance my understanding of Lucas. Albany contradicts my understanding of Lucas. I don't re-watch series 7 & 8 and think "Now, it all makes sense." Instead, I think I'm watching an entirely different character.

[HellsBells]

I think the plot-holes in series 9 are more just more obvious because the Lucas story line is so 'wrong' and we need to fully understand how the character got there and how he did what he did. There are very few plot holes relating to the 'story of the week', most are aimed at the Lucas story-arc.

[Silktie]

Can we all refrain from telling other people what they should think? Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express it. You can do so without putting other people down, or implying that your opinion is the only right one. Let's all be considerate towards each other, thanks.

[molecatcher]

Crikey, a swarm of angy bees is buzzing at me LOL

(07-04-2011 01:05 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  Now you've taken the ride, what's left for you? How will the show hold up after repeated re-watches? After the OMG moments start to affect you less because you know what's coming, how do you think you'll like it? The problem with going for shock is that it really only works once - the first time.

When I first watched Citizen Kane, I was unspoiled for Rosebud so yes, I had a great "OMG, I never would have guessed it" moment. But knowing the identity of Rosebud now enhances the movie when I re-watch it because I understand the character of Charles Foster Kane better. The problem with Albany is that it doesn't enhance my understanding of Lucas. Albany contradicts my understanding of Lucas. I don't re-watch series 7 & 8 and think "Now, it all makes sense." Instead, I think I'm watching an entirely different character.

Repeated rewatches isn't my thing but if I do watch the series again I will thoroughly enjoy watching the emotional ride the three main characters took. As I said in my first post, the human psyche is a fascinating thing, something that could be contemplated until the cows came home and still never completely understood or appreciated.

Anyway, as someone else suggested I do, I'll get off the thread since my opinion is causing such a furore.

[Byatil]

(07-04-2011 07:02 PM)molecatcher Wrote:  Anyway, as someone else suggested I do, I'll get off the thread since my opinion is causing such a furore.

Aw, please don't! Not before I've asked you a couple of questions, at least?

Do you have any issues with the way S9 was conducted at all, or do you just see it as light-hearted entertainment? How many series of Spooks have you watched prior to S9? Are you more interested in the "threat of the week" or the characters?

I'm just interested because I watched Silk recently, and whilst the character plots were at times ridiculous and often completely unrealistic, I went along with it because it was entertaining and I enjoyed the characters. Is that how you view Spooks? I wonder if some of us are a little too emotionally invested in the show to disregard a plot as "light-hearted entertainment", which, whilst not entirely plausible, is still "good drama".

[xRuthx]

^I think the reason I am more bugged by this then other shows is because Spooks really has sold itself as an intellectual drama based on a degree of realism (at least within the world they have created). So when Robin Hood series two finale happened, yes it was annoying and I thought the writers were idiots but Robin Hood never had any pretensions of being anything more than a made for tv swashbuckling style adventure romp with some pretty people to look at from week to week so really that kind of "shock" story was to be expected. Spooks as a show does sell itself as something more and therin lies my annoyance.

With Spooks, there have been many plot holes even from the get go because of the nature of the storylines, but these plot holes never broke my belief in the Spooksiverse itself (Juliet could have done in series six but she was never a main character and only had one story that didn't have to affect everyone else so I could just move on. Ditto for the Home Sec in series nine. It's weird and doesn't make much sense but I can deal with it because you can just ignore it for future episodes once its out of the way. With Lucas you absolutely cannot because he was a central character for three series.)

Obviously people watch things for different reasons and as I said before obv. people DID like Jucas storyline, but by the same token, just as many didn't. Which comes back to Silktie's reminder that we all have our own opinions and its pretty obvious none of us are going to change them. Also, I'm no mod but perhaps this kind of discussion belongs in the 'How did you feel about series nine' thread in terms of discussion of what we loved/liked/didn't like about the show?

[HellsBells]

(07-04-2011 07:02 PM)molecatcher Wrote:  Anyway, as someone else suggested I do, I'll get off the thread since my opinion is causing such a furore.

Please don't go. This is all about discussion and you can't have a good discussion without different opinions.