Poll: Will Harry survive the show?

pennyfeather · (This post was last modified: 03-08-2011 01:26 AM by pennyfeather.)

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Despite all the horrors that have befallen her, the Ruth of season 8 was still the one who reminded the others that they were working with people, not chess pieces, who questioned the morality of what they are doing. She was patient with the weaknesses of others as well. But in season 9, she is suddenly much harder. It is now all about the success of the operation, and sometimes just a numbers game: as long as you save more than you sacrifice it's acceptable. She is also impatient with the weaknesses shown by others. Taking into account that there couldn't have been more than a week or two time-wise between 8.8 and 9.1, how does one account for this very sudden change in her personality?
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That 'sudden change' in Ruth's personality is exactly why I found the 9th Season so jarring. Were the writers in this season an entirely different set of people or were they just trying to create division and more drama between Harry and Ruth?

beatrice4ruth · (This post was last modified: 03-08-2011 12:31 PM by beatrice4ruth.)

A brief remark. I am not shocked by Ruth's reactions (perhaps post-traumatic stress disorder which might appear after months; latent in S8, emerged at Ros's burial and Harr's wedding proposal), because it is obvious that she loves Harry and that has not changed over the series.

**A Cousin** · (This post was last modified: 03-08-2011 01:47 PM by A Cousin.)

(03-08-2011 12:52 AM)pennyfeather Wrote: Were the writers in this season an entirely different set of people or were they just trying to create division and more drama between Harry and Ruth?

Not all of them. The lead writers, Johnathan Brackley and Sam Vincent, were new, as was Oliver Brown, who was a co-writer with Brackley/Vincent on 9.5. The other four - David Farr (9.2), Richard McBrien (9.3), and Anthony Neilson (9.7) - had all written for Spooks in past series. More to the point, the producer, Lachlan McKinnon, was new as well. The producer and lead writers have a lot of control over the over-all feel and theme of a series. Chris Fry, who produced S8, is back to produce S10. As are Sam Vincent and Jonathan Brackley.

That said, none of this is unusual for Spooks. They have consistently developed new talent over the years. If memory serves, Ben Richards was a novelist when he started writing for Spooks.

But I am waaaay OT....

I am with the crew that says that Harry has had very consistent development. He has had the luxury of time, familiarity and focus that no other character on the programme has had.

My opinions re: Ruth's development I will move to the Ruth thread. Smile

beatrice4ruth · 03-08-2011, 05:37 PM

A Cousin wrote: I am with the crew that says that Harry has had very consistent development. He has had the luxury of time, familiarity and focus that no other character on the programme has had.

How true. I had exactly the same thought. After all, Spooks is centered on Harry and his longevity in Section D.

**Silktie** · 20-09-2011, 06:36 AM

Now that Harry's big secret has been revealed, have we really learnt anything about him as a person we didn't know before?

I'm not sure. We already knew he was unfaithful to his wife when he started out as a spy (with Juliet) and this liaison with Elena takes place in more or less the same era of his career. The difference this time is that he has a son with her that he's not had any contact with (although it would have been difficult to do so without blowing Elena).

I agree with others that this is not an attractive part of Harry, but he has never been perfect. And I think that is good character-wise. I also like that we know these infidelities cost him a lot: his marriage and the fact that he has no significant relationship with his children, legitimate or otherwise. We have been shown that this is a source of great sorrow to him, in this latest episode as well as in the season 3 one with his daughter.

So, thirty years later, has he changed and learned from these mistakes? The rest of the season will tell. For me these revelations don't ruin his character, as we already knew these things about him, and because in the ten years we've known him, he has shown us who he now really is.

We'll have to wait and see whether the past coming back to bite him in the behind changes that.

But he was in fine form this episode. Great to see the cutting wit back, and looked mighty fine in that dinner jacket. And he got a bit of action too - nicely timed elbow there, Sir Harry. Wink

beatrice4ruth · 20-09-2011, 11:12 AM

I am not concerned about Harry's sentimental life 30 years ago. I am really worried about the professional mistakes he made 30 years and its repercussions today. I think that it is what series 10 is about. Harry's unorthodox work methods and his willingness to think out of the box made him a successful head of section, but at the same time made him many enemies, British or foreign. It did not help him that he refused to join some circles or cultivate professional ties through golf or clubs.

Harry must have made an intelligence decision, at the time he was with Elena and because of her, that might have jeopardize a mission.
This mistake, known only by very few people, is being taken advantage to destroy Harry's career and reputation even further.

**A Cousin** · 20-09-2011, 01:39 PM

(20-09-2011 11:12 AM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: Harry must have made an intelligence decision, at the time he was with Elena and because of her, that might have jeopardize a mission.
This mistake, known only by very few people, is being taken advantage to destroy Harry's career and reputation even further.

I certainly hope this is the case. I would be a bit disappointed (and surprised) if they take the sentimental route. I think the fact that they have already revealed the "Sasha-is-my-son" (brilliantly under-played but the man himself) hopefully means that that isn't all there is to it?

But humour me here for a minute while I wax symbolic (you know you love it Silktie! Wink

), to go with the Harry as a tragic hero idea, as is the form of Greek tragedy, he is a basically good man who made mistakes that then come back to bite him in the ass. Whatever goal he has to accomplish runs into road-blocks presented by fate, the gods or his own hamartia (or what is known as the "tragic flaw") gets in the way. All this leads to him having some sort of revelation and catharsis and ending in a reversal of fortune. In Harry's case, I think his hamartia would be his "sure moral sense". I thought it interesting that they used Nicholas Blake's words to Harry in 9.1 about his sure moral sense limiting him.

**Silktie** · 20-09-2011, 04:40 PM

(20-09-2011 01:39 PM)A Cousin Wrote: But humour me here for a minute while I wax symbolic (you know you love it Silktie! ), to go with the Harry as a tragic hero idea, as is the form of Greek tragedy, he is a basically good man who made mistakes that then come back to bite him in the ass. Whatever goal he has to accomplish runs into road-blocks presented by fate, the gods or his own hamartia (or what is known as the "tragic flaw") gets in the way. All this leads to him having some sort of revelation and catharsis and ending in a reversal of fortune. In Harry's case, I think his hamartia would be his "sure moral sense". I thought it interesting that they used Nicholas Blake's words to Harry in 9.1 about his sure moral sense limiting him.

I don't know what you mean Silba

But seriously, I really don't know what you mean? It's been a long and difficult day so perhaps my faculties are somewhat dimmed tonight. Are you saying that he will have to let go of his moral sense to achieve his goal? And what would his goal in this instance be?

I have a dreading feeling that we're going to end up with Harry having to choose between his son and his country - the thing he's fought all his life for. In that sense, for him to choose Sasha, he would have to let go of his sure moral sense. Or will he choose his country - and stay true to himself - and thus end up being a tragic hero because he sacrifices his son?

beatrice4ruth · 20-09-2011, 05:15 PM

(20-09-2011 04:40 PM)Silktie Wrote:
(20-09-2011 01:39 PM)A Cousin Wrote: But humour me here for a minute while I wax symbolic (you know you love it Silktie! ), to go with the Harry as a tragic hero idea, as is the form of Greek tragedy, he is a basically good man who made mistakes that then come back to bite him in the ass. Whatever goal he has to accomplish runs into road-blocks presented by fate, the gods or his own hamartia (or what is known as the "tragic flaw") gets in the way. All this leads to him having some sort of revelation and catharsis and ending in a reversal of fortune. In Harry's case, I think his hamartia would be his "sure moral sense". I thought it interesting that they used Nicholas Blake's words to Harry in 9.1 about his sure moral sense limiting him.

I don't know what you mean

But seriously, I really don't know what you mean? It's been a long and difficult day so perhaps my faculties are somewhat dimmed tonight. Are you saying that he will have to let go of his moral sense to achieve his goal? And what would his goal in this instance be?

I have a dreading feeling that we're going to end up with Harry having to choose between his son and his country - the thing he's fought all his life for. In that sense, for him to choose Sasha, he would have to let go of his sure moral sense. Or will he choose his country - and stay true to himself - and thus end up being a tragic hero because he sacrifices his son?

I hope Harry chooses his country to be true to himself and not Sascha if indeed he is his son. Sascha seems unbalanced and I do not understand why he is a SFB security officer. It will also depend if Sascha kills Ruth and Harry will then have no qualm killing him.

On the other hand, since Harry has neglected his English children, he might feel compelled to save his Russian son as expiation.

I hope that Kudos does not go down that road. It's so melodramatic that it is not even a Greek tragedy. Even worse, it is no longer a drama about spying.

**A Cousin** · 20-09-2011, 05:29 PM

(20-09-2011 04:40 PM)Silktie Wrote: Are you saying that he will have to let go of his moral sense to achieve his goal? And what would his goal in this instance be?

Not that he will have to give it up but that it will be his downfall because he can't or won't give it up or if he did it would be worthless because the fickle finger of fate set the ball rolling too fast for him to stop. In the tradition of Greek tragedy, of course. He will, in the end, experience a catharsis and a change of fortune. Might die. Might not. Doesn't have to. Sometimes they are just blinded - literally and symbolically speaking. Although even that might be a bit OTT even for Spooks. Wink

Sometimes they are just exiled. Or lose everything and remain in their community as a pariah. But always with a deeper understanding of themselves.

To my mind the goal is not clear yet. Finding out who killed Max Witt, and why, perhaps?

OR...

I could be taking one little phrase from a PF interview, over analyzing it and blowing it completely out of proportion. You be the judge.... Silba