Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion

[Ceridwyn2]

DogSoSmall - Well, she couldn't exactly tell you "Well, I die." Seriously, you can't expect an actor to give away plot points for the series finale of the show. It's an unreasonable expectation. And for Nicola, her saying "it will be okay," from her perspective, it may well have been. Her performances are phenomenal. She's done great work, and really, this season has been some of her best work ever.

Heck, Ruth even got to do some good field work this series without being injured...up to her death at the end of the finale.

[pennyfeather]

Dogsosmall:
I doubt Nicola let you up the garden path (or is it down...) on purpose. You two probably have a different definition of whats hopeful or fullfilling when it comes to tragedy and tragic endings, thats all. Tragedy can be depressing, heart breaking and frustrating as well as inspiring and life affirming. Its all in the way you read it. I mean yes Harry was fed up with being a 'tool' but i think Ruth's death reconciled him to a life back in M15 where service is the one thing which could give some meaning back into his life again, esp after Ruth's death.
Frankly i think it wouldve been more depressing if he'd bought that house, lived alone and most likely wallowed in a self pitying or at any rate depressed stupor. That is not the Harry we know and Ruth would not have liked that. Working he is facing life once more and perhaps by reconnecting that way he is finding a means of staying connected with Ruth. To her memory and what, surely, she would have approved of seeing. She always hated it when he gave himself over to guilt and self pity.

Anyway thats my 2am two cents worth. Excuse poor structure and spelling, im on my phone.

[Gazelle]

(24-10-2011 02:27 AM)Scarlet Wrote:  I have to say........ I feel totally let down by that last episode. Not only the ending but the revelation of everything else seemed too predictable and I thought the whole thing was very flat, especially after last week's episode. I thought they were going to reveal that someone else was behind it. Elena being the guilty party was so obvious in my mind I never thought they;d go down that route at all. I also agree with others that Tom's return was pathetic. No reason at all for him to have returned. How long was he on screen? Two seconds? That's not to say PF and NW weren't amazing as they were but it was heartbreaking. Come on Kudos, after all the trouble the fans went to to get Ruth back, you just couldn't end it happily for those two and kill someone else off instead? I'm sorry I don't agree that it would have been too cheesy - they could have done it subtly. I also don't agree that it would not have been in spooks style for Harry and Ruth to have had a happy ending. Zoe and Tom did. And I think Ruth was just as popular as Zoe, if not more. I think it was actually more predictable ands sensationalist for them to do it rather than have a happier ending. I am devastated to have had my suspicions proved right. I had a feeling they would kill Ruth off all along. I might be feel differently when I have calmed down but I doubt it somehow. A waste of ten years is what I think. So many more exciting avenues they could have gone down. And as for the final line being really wonderful - maybe its just me but I didn't see it. I completely disagree with Ian Wylie that this was Spooks finest hour - in fact I think it was their worst.

I'm on here early as I only had a half day at work today, which is just as well as I was only half there anyway. I agree totally with your sentiments, I'm still really disappointed by the ending, I have to admit at the moment this hurts more than TV should.

I'm also disappointed by how wrong all the hints that have been dropped by some people along the way have proven to be - from Jane Featherstone's interview on Breakfast when it was announced that this would be the last series to comments by the actors even. I'm sorry but I can't see how anyone could class this as a good ending or even the right ending - it's so not.

Not only are the circumstances in which Ruth dies so heartbreaking (when she and Harry are so close to seeing their way out of years of missed chances and obstacles), but Harry's left mired in more misery than ever before although somehow clinging onto his job (what's happened to the Albany enquiry and the CIA extradition?)

Part of the reason I feel this is so unfair to fans is that Harry and Ruth have been the one constant in recent years that had not only added something really special to Spooks but even allowed many of us to overlook the glaring shortcomings and far-fetched plot in S9. I now understand all the better how dismayed fans of Richard Armitage were last year at the way Lucas was dealt with, for me it didn't matter so much as it was Ruth and Harry that had come to define Spooks. Now it's my turn (and many others') to feel the let down and disappointment that it seems Spooks writers revel in dishing out.

For me this ending will forever be a missed opportunity.

[Deanlad]

I am not the greatest wordsmith, and certainly not as constructive as some of the episode/ series dissections been posted here - it was a few years since I got my grades in A level English literature ;-)

But As posted a few posts back, H&R had not had much focus on their relationship in the whole series, as said, a glance here, a few words there, a smile and knowing look,and we perceive it as the whole love story.

It is a very very powerful tool that writers have, when they only have to hint at the start of an event, and they leave it to our minds to detail the conclusion.


Yes it was galling they did not leave the service together, but I supposed they condensed years into moments. They were free and together for that few minutes on the beach until Sacha changed it all.

But we saw Ruth pass, we saw Harry grieve, we saw him "sort of" come through the other side and go back to what he does best...

Suppose they did get their happy ending.
What would have happened, 2 years later, we get another series comeback.
Some faction group, come after Harry - we know he has enough enemies. How would they strike? Probably at Ruth...
And then it would start again. Dream gone, Harry would probably go back to section D, hunt down the perpetrators, blah ,blah blah.
It's a tried and trusted formula of Kudos/ Spooks.

[Gazelle]

You're right of course in many ways. It only makes it a tiny bit less disappointing though!

[A Cousin]

Wow! Such impassioned responses. I am still writing from a rather impassioned POV myself. I am not yet ready to really jump in with any kind of deep analysis. I am still just just working through my general impressions. I find the only way I can really face it is to be a bit cold about it. So forgive me when I say, for me, that episode is what great theater is all about. It evoked every emotion I have to the nth degree and I am still drained by it. It will be a while before I can re-watch it. It is going to take a lot of Jane Austen adaptations to counter-act that one episode!

Brilliant twists and turns with Elena and Ilya particularly. Perhaps some of it was predictable, but since I was not inclined to speculate nor seek out spoilers, I just let the wave take me where it will. I liked that Elena didn't do it for love but Ilya did. Plain and simple. I thought they were going to go the other way with that. I would have hated her being an innocent. And Ilya was true to what he said to Harry, when the time came for him to kill someone, he not only did it himself, he did it with his bare hands. Very brutal! And I suppose that I should have known that both Harry and Ilya were going to lose the woman they love pretty much by their own hands: Ilya literally and Harry figuratively.

I suppose I also should have known that once Ruth said, "I know that he has given up more than I thought possible" that it was far from over. I suppose it's time for me to turn in my harryandruth membership card, but I have said from the beginning that I did not need Harry and Ruth walking away together, I just wanted them to truly, honestly and forth-rightly acknowledge what they mean to each other (and they did) as not be ret-conned (and they weren't). They were true to their characters to the end, sacrificing everything for the job and for each other.

I adored Ruth. I am gutted that she died. But I thought Ruth died reconciled to her sacrifice for her love of Harry because it meant that she did not lose herself completely. The very human and humane Ruth we knew in 2.2 is still in there, right down to her quirkiness of loving the green chipped paint door. I wonder if that is what NW was trying to convey to the fans?

I am very glad that they put this episode in the hands of Mr. Nalurri. In any other, it would have turned into pastiche. Well done, Mr. Nalurri. Once I can view it without dissolving into tears, I'll probably be back to talk more about the production. Suffice it to say that his touch was very respectful.

The Memorial Wall was where I completely lost it. One glance of Danny's name and I was a gonner. And then, and then, we get PF's reaction to Ruth's name. An incredible homage to those that came before and the one that really made it all hit home for Harry. The line, "Do you ever think about the lives you have ruined" made more sense than ever. I think for the very first time, I really felt and internalized who Harry really is. Not just intellectually understood, but really felt the pain, guilt, anger, despair, conviction, honour, and bravery that makes Harry Pearce who he is. And PF being able to convey all that with no words at all just illustrates what a brilliant actor he is.

Question: Do you think that that is the first time Harry had been to the Memorial? His reaction tells me that it is the first time he has faced Ruth's name on it at least. But, do you think that he had been to it prior to Ruth's death?

[Gillymac]

I think I saw posted elsewhere that Tariq's name is three above Ruth's on the memorial wall - hope that helps. (I haven't checked myself, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken).

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, as someone has said elsewhere, this forum would be a pretty boring place if we all thought the same. For those of us that aren't shippers however, it can be really awful watching people tearing themselves apart over every tiny minute detail of costume, set, props and dialogue, desperately trying to to find something, in everything, that validates your particular view of the show - hence why people latched onto this endinghappy character (This isn't solely a H&R Shipper thing either - last year there were people who were practically suicidal over Lucas for God's sake).

Relax. Breathe. It's only a television show. Nobody is really dead. If you don't like it, you dont like it - but theres nothing you can do about it now and seriously, whats the point of working yourself up into such a state? You'll only make yourselves ill. If you want to punish Kudos, don't buy the DVD - it's simple.

That sounds really patronising when I read it back, and I don't mean it to - honestly. Those NW fans amongst you can at least go and see her in the theatre etc - We POGs have to wait ages for new PF projects!

*Runs and hides*

[A Cousin]

(24-10-2011 02:58 PM)Gillymac Wrote:  Relax. Breathe. It's only a television show. Nobody is really dead. If you don't like it, you dont like it - but theres nothing you can do about it now and seriously, whats the point of working yourself up into such a state? You'll only make yourselves ill. If you want to punish Kudos, don't buy the DVD - it's simple.

That sounds really patronising when I read it back, and I don't mean it to - honestly. Those NW fans amongst you can at least go and see her in the theatre etc - We POGs have to wait ages for new PF projects!

Um, yeah, it does. I understand that that is not your intention but it's not helping, gillymac. Commentary that makes assumptions re: other people's opinions/feelings never does. We are already emotional enough. I am not a Mod but I have been hanging around here for a very long time and have posted a lot - alotalotalotalot... . Got in trouble for some of it too. Word to the wise: best to leave it as something left unsaid.

And, yes, T. Masood is definitely on the Memorial. Connie and Lucas are not - IMO, for obvious reasons. Couldn't see if Helen was on it because it kind of started at D. Hunter.

[Scarlet]

(24-10-2011 02:07 PM)Gazelle Wrote:  I'm on here early as I only had a half day at work today, which is just as well as I was only half there anyway. I agree totally with your sentiments, I'm still really disappointed by the ending, I have to admit at the moment this hurts more than TV should.

I'm also disappointed by how wrong all the hints that have been dropped by some people along the way have proven to be - from Jane Featherstone's interview on Breakfast when it was announced that this would be the last series to comments by the actors even. I'm sorry but I can't see how anyone could class this as a good ending or even the right ending - it's so not.

Not only are the circumstances in which Ruth dies so heartbreaking (when she and Harry are so close to seeing their way out of years of missed chances and obstacles), but Harry's left mired in more misery than ever before although somehow clinging onto his job (what's happened to the Albany enquiry and the CIA extradition?)

Part of the reason I feel this is so unfair to fans is that Harry and Ruth have been the one constant in recent years that had not only added something really special to Spooks but even allowed many of us to overlook the glaring shortcomings and far-fetched plot in S9. I now understand all the better how dismayed fans of Richard Armitage were last year at the way Lucas was dealt with, for me it didn't matter so much as it was Ruth and Harry that had come to define Spooks. Now it's my turn (and many others') to feel the let down and disappointment that it seems Spooks writers revel in dishing out.

For me this ending will forever be a missed opportunity.

Gazelle, I agree - although seems we are in a minority. I'm planning on watching the repeat tonight and see if I still think the same afterwards. It's not only the ending that seriously disappointed me. I was really very disappointed with the plot resolution. As someone else said it seemed very weak to me. I think actually the members of this forum came up with storylines that were much better in the rumours thread. For me it was not a definitive ending as there were still many loose ends - we never heard anymore about albany, nightingale, many of the characters that we never heard from again and never knew what happened to. I'm not saying everything should always be resolved but I just think too much was left hanging personally. I think the plot was completely predictable, I kept saying this can't be it, there must be some other revelation other than 'Elena did it.

For me this had none of the many twists and turns of earlier series - the episode about the Diana assassination, or Sugarhorse for example. I thought the writers very weak in the last episode. I personally also think Tom could have been used much better. I still personally think the ending was actually too predictable because spooks became known for doing this, therefore, to actually not kill either ruth or harry off, but say Tom for example would imo have been much more surprising. Or not kill anyone off at all and do a different ending. I disagree that this would have been betraying the series - it would have been doing something totally different than everyone expected and confounding us all again! To me, that has always been the true nature of spooks.

I thought H & R deserved a happy ending because I feel they both naturally progressed through the series (especially Harry), from being emotionally closed/dead to moving past that and coming together at the end. I would not have wanted a sentimental wedding or other mushy type scene - correct to say that was never spooks. I do believe it could have been hinted at. Having said all that, I do acknowledge that in dramatic terms, a tragic ending will always be more stunning than a happy one, and both PF and NW had me crying buckets last night. I hope that they finally get a BAFTA or something for their performances. I just did come away with the feeling of 'was that it?' over the whole 60 mins. Just my view.

[DogSoSmall]

(24-10-2011 01:31 PM)Ceridwyn2 Wrote:  DogSoSmall - Well, she couldn't exactly tell you "Well, I die." Seriously, you can't expect an actor to give away plot points for the series finale of the show. It's an unreasonable expectation. And for Nicola, her saying "it will be okay," from her perspective, it may well have been. Her performances are phenomenal. She's done great work, and really, this season has been some of her best work ever.

I didn't expect her to tell me anything. I expected her to say, "I'm really sorry, I don't want to spoil it" or some such. I couldn't resist asking all the same, like a damn fool. My question was "will you make me cry in Spooks aswell?". Her reply was an instant "No" and said, you will have to believe me, with such comfort and reassurance that I was completely taken in. She added that I would be cheering. Sorry, but I can't help but feel hurt.

Thanks, Pennyfeather for your rather more sympathetic response!! I'll get over it, a sadder but wiser woman!!