Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion

[Sparky]

Quote: nimax1 Wrote:

(Today 06:23 AM)harrbd Wrote: Yes, why was Jim Coaver kidnapped and killed. I don't think he knew about Elena because he said to Harry that they would work together to figure it out.


I believe we are to make the connection that Elena had him kidnapped (and used her husband's bodyguards to do her dirty work) from Harry's clutches because she did not want the two of them to work on it together and "figure it out" which most likely they would have. Now how she found out that Harry had him is beyond me. Ruth told Towers. How'd that get to Elena. Who knows? Of course, maybe the bad guys were watching Coaver's kidnap by Harry and they followed them. And then they threw him out of the back of the van when they were followed to get away from Harry. A lot of put together but it is the only thing that makes sense to me.


The timing of Coaver's death makes me think it was done to get Harry in trouble with the CIA. Elena could have had Coaver killed as soon as she came to London, but she didn't, because she needed him to be the fall-guy in the 'fake Harry' saga. But as soon as Harry grabs Coaver, she realises he will eventually convince Harry of his innocence, and he is therefore no longer of use to her. So she can kill him and at the same time get Harry removed from the scene by the Americans.

This all makes complete sense. But how the hell did she know where Harry was going to take Jim? I was convinced either Calum or the HS was a wrong-un simply because they were the only ones who knew where Harry had gone (besides Ruth, but Ruth being a traitor would have been way worse than her dying).

[Tea Lady]

(26-10-2011 11:55 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  To Gillymac:

It is a pity that Silktie did not write the last episode.

Perhaps she did

*Lends Silktie Kevlar body armour and Kevlar socks*

(26-10-2011 11:55 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  Tea Lady - I like your humour.

Thanks. Its the drugs (over the counter and legal of course)

(27-10-2011 03:24 AM)A Cousin Wrote:  Well! Peter Firth said it was a 6-act Greek tragedy and I’ll be diddly-dog-damned if they gave us a 6-act Greek tragedy! I don’t know if this was intentionally done by Kudos, but it is almost more amazing if it wasn’t. None the less, it came complete with a Medea (Elena), an Oedipus (Sasha), a Penelope (Ruth), a Greek Chorus (the threats -of-the-week as played out by Erin/Dimitri), a sage (Calum), and I am pretty sure even Gavrik and Towers have some sort of parallel I haven’t figured out yet, not to mention the hubris, pathos, hamartia and anagnorisis of the sublimely magnificent man himself, Sir Harry Pearce. Topped off with a great, big, silent scream of a catharsis for the characters and viewers... Now THAT’S theater!

As soon as I read that post I thought, fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the writings of A Cousin...

[Naivety]

(27-10-2011 07:28 AM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(27-10-2011 03:24 AM)A Cousin Wrote:  Well! Peter Firth said it was a 6-act Greek tragedy and I’ll be diddly-dog-damned if they gave us a 6-act Greek tragedy! I don’t know if this was intentionally done by Kudos, but it is almost more amazing if it wasn’t. None the less, it came complete with a Medea (Elena), an Oedipus (Sasha), a Penelope (Ruth), a Greek Chorus (the threats -of-the-week as played out by Erin/Dimitri), a sage (Calum), and I am pretty sure even Gavrik and Towers have some sort of parallel I haven’t figured out yet, not to mention the hubris, pathos, hamartia and anagnorisis of the sublimely magnificent man himself, Sir Harry Pearce. Topped off with a great, big, silent scream of a catharsis for the characters and viewers... Now THAT’S theater!

As soon as I read that post I thought, fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the writings of A Cousin...

So did I! Although I don't pretend to understand it!!

On another note....Gavrik's speech of 10.5 'I have a tortoise in the garden...' turned out to be empty words. Turned out that his wife, and son etc was all based on a lie. Harry had none of those things but he did have the true (unresolved) love of a loyal woman. Who was the luckier man?

[molecatcher]

(26-10-2011 09:53 AM)binkie Wrote:  Edited, because pronouns are important!

Binkie, I haven't finished reading through and catching up but had to let you know you just made me cry with laughter. Brilliant!!

[beatrice4ruth]

I feel sorry for the fans who have loved and supported Harry and Ruth for the last ten years. What do they get at the end of their journey? A dead Ruth and a broken Harry, soldiering on. Neither the fans nor Ruth nor Harry deserve such an ending.

I know that it is jut a poll. It is however revealing. Cult Box asked their viewers what they thought about episode 6: 64.6% of them thought it was perfect apart from Ruth's death.

I rest my case. Kudos has underestimated the love of the fans for Harry and Ruth.

[daphne]

.. possibly consoling words for spooked Spooks who sobbed/shed tears?

.. the role of an artist is to inoculate the world from disappointment
- Arthur Miller
(probably a mangled paraphrase!)
ok, so Miller is not Shakespeare or An Ancient Greek Great. but. for what it's worth-

just so my last thought is a simple and personal one.
simply personal..

my experience of life has been that happy endings are rare.
life throws curve-balls. they hit hard and deep. as deep and fatal as any shard of glass cut through flesh.

by giving us an ending that mitigates great victory with great grief, Spooks feels more 'believable' (to me).

but I am no less a dreamer for this!
I held my breath, wistfully, for the happy ending, too- just like many here- and just like Harry and Ruth may have, for that matter-- !

may you all be inoculated (!) for a little while- continue to do what's right in the face of.. whatever it is you're facing.

ENOUGH, eh?
the thread is l-o-n-g--
glad I'm not alone in responding in TV-land to some terrific storytelling!

but I feel the inappropriate, uh, jokes/humor coming on--- punchiness setting in after tears-
so I oughtta bow out!

[Gillymac]

(26-10-2011 11:55 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  To an older deluded fan there is no greater love than a love between two people who are not only intellectually and emotionally compatible but also sexually well-matched.

A kiss, just before Ruth's death, to acknowledge the love of Harry and Ruth was not asking too much. I personally have never expected a nude scene in the middle of the field (just joking), just an understated hint that Harry and Ruth are now together.

Hmmm... As for your description of yourself...you said it :-P.

I don't do fanfic personally and if I did I wouldn't share it with others, because fanfic for me is all about self gratification, wish fullfilment and fantasy. It has nothing to do with workable dramatic structure or narrative line (not to mention continuity of character and plot development). People can and do write beautiful stories based on fictional characters that they haven't created themselves - I'm not getting at the fanfic writers here, but I would respectfully suggest that if their narratives were workable as television drama, they would be employed as scriptwriters rather than sharing their work online for free.

Harry and Ruth were NEVER together, they were NEVER a couple. Thats the point. Close friends, trusted colleagues, confidants to each other? Yes, of course. But they never crossed the line into a romantic relationship. BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.

There was attraction certainly, longing even on both sides but, as is the case with all classic 'doomed' relationships they were "...never meant to have any of those things". They had ample opportunity to start a relationship, but neither of them acted on it, UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE.

Given the fact that they never had an actual romantic relationship - they weren't going out with each other, boyfriend and girlfriend or whatever way you want to phrase it, it is perfectly reasonable that we never saw them get physical with each other.

[Ceridwyn2]

(27-10-2011 11:57 AM)Gillymac Wrote:  

(26-10-2011 11:55 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:  To an older deluded fan there is no greater love than a love between two people who are not only intellectually and emotionally compatible but also sexually well-matched.

A kiss, just before Ruth's death, to acknowledge the love of Harry and Ruth was not asking too much. I personally have never expected a nude scene in the middle of the field (just joking), just an understated hint that Harry and Ruth are now together.

Hmmm... As for your description of yourself...you said it :-P.

I don't do fanfic personally and if I did I wouldn't share it with others, because fanfic for me is all about self gratification, wish fullfilment and fantasy. It has nothing to do with workable dramatic structure or narrative line (not to mention continuity of character and plot development). People can and do write beautiful stories based on fictional characters that they haven't created themselves - I'm not getting at the fanfic writers here, but I would respectfully suggest that if their narratives were workable as television drama, they would be employed as scriptwriters rather than sharing their work online for free.

I'm a nurse by profession, and a fan fiction writer for fun. Part of the fun, I suppose, for me, is playing in other folk's universes, at least for the time being.

Quote:Harry and Ruth were NEVER together, they were NEVER a couple. Thats the point. Close friends, trusted colleagues, confidants to each other? Yes, of course. But they never crossed the line into a romantic relationship. BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.

There was attraction certainly, longing even on both sides but, as is the case with all classic 'doomed' relationships they were "...never meant to have any of those things". They had ample opportunity to start a relationship, but neither of them acted on it, UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE.

Given the fact that they never had an actual romantic relationship - they weren't going out with each other, boyfriend and girlfriend or whatever way you want to phrase it, it is perfectly reasonable that we never saw them get physical with each other.

THANK YOU! Brilliantly articulated. While we can see them in romantic pairings in various fan fiction stories to various degrees, the fact is, that what was shown on screen is exactly how you described. We weren't going to get that physical exploration the way we saw it with Adam and Fiona, Tom/Ellie or others because that's not what they were onscreen, and I never expected we would get that.

[Naivety]

(27-10-2011 12:45 PM)Ceridwyn2 Wrote:  

Quote:Harry and Ruth were NEVER together, they were NEVER a couple. Thats the point. Close friends, trusted colleagues, confidants to each other? Yes, of course. But they never crossed the line into a romantic relationship. BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.

There was attraction certainly, longing even on both sides but, as is the case with all classic 'doomed' relationships they were "...never meant to have any of those things". They had ample opportunity to start a relationship, but neither of them acted on it, UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE.

Given the fact that they never had an actual romantic relationship - they weren't going out with each other, boyfriend and girlfriend or whatever way you want to phrase it, it is perfectly reasonable that we never saw them get physical with each other.

THANK YOU! Brilliantly articulated. While we can see them in romantic pairings in various fan fiction stories to various degrees, the fact is, that what was shown on screen is exactly how you described. We weren't going to get that physical exploration the way we saw it with Adam and Fiona, Tom/Ellie or others because that's not what they were onscreen, and I never expected we would get that.

Thank Heavens for that! Harry and Ruth between the sheets would have been completely wrong! It was always 'something wonderful but never said'. Harry told Mani in 8.1 that it was beyond 'his grubby little mind'. It was understated, that was the point! I think there are some fans who have forgotten the difference between fan fiction and what was scripted by the Spooks writers!

[daphne]

(27-10-2011 11:57 AM)Gillymac Wrote:  They had ample opportunity to start a relationship, but neither of them acted on it, UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE.

.. I get/agree with the gist of your words- but waitaminnit! I have to speak up for Harry, not here to defend himself (I certainly hope he/Peter Firth isn't anywhere near-virtually listening- groan!)

Harry tried The Date, The fancy Dinner- with a grand tour of Europe dangled, no less, said he was willing to live with office talk/laughter.. he tried the late night just-happened-to-be-wandering-in-the-hotel-hall thing, every which kind of compliment, appreciative word, the marriage proposal, 'bad timing' or not, heck, the risking of his life more than once! too- etc
(not that anyone is keeping track, or anything )

the guy probably tried more- and tried longer- than he'd ever tried before! so let Harry off the hook !
(and why do I care.. jeez)

this is silly but fun
I'd never admit to it in Real Life..