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**JHyde** · (This post was last modified: 04-12-2009 04:19 PM by JHyde.)

No need to use spoiler tags in this thread unless expressly referring to confirmed spoilers about ensuing episodes of the show. All episodes aired on *BBC3* are fair game.

There's been some really interesting discussion about these two and their uneasy but affectionate relationship all over the forum. I thought it might be time to have a dedicated place for it.

They definitely have trouble telling the truth to each other, at the very least. Some of us think this mistrust is headed for something explosive as season 8 draws to a close.

I'll transcribe some of the thoughts people have had over the next day or two, but feel free to jump right in and talk about one of the more interesting dynamics on the show.

**JHyde** · (This post was last modified: 04-12-2009 03:11 PM by JHyde.)

OK, so I've been trying to dredge up old discussions on this, and it was a subject of much discussion on the Harry thread, but the only recent quote I could find was mine!

Silktie, almh and I were chatting about how wonderful the Lucas/Harry dynamic is and how we're hoping for some sort of culmination to the storyline about this tension they have. Then I said:

"I just think that it's been brewing since he got back, and Richard and Peter are so great, because they're such DIFFERENT actors, really different techniques. But the characters also share a great similarity, in that they're both fiercely loyal, and there's also a genuine affection that exists between them. You only have to see Harry's face when he sees Lucas get out the car in 7.1, or in 8.4 at the prospect of sending him back anywhere near an FSB interrogator. That distrust isn't going away though....it will be one hell of a storyline when it comes."

In the episode 4 discussion thread were discussing Harry once again looking Lucas in the eyes and saying no, he doesn't know what he's talking about, when Lucas asks about Basel. Silktie responded with:
"Yeah, I'm not criticising Harry for lying to Lucas as he has extremely valid reasons for doing so, but my point is that Lucas is likely to take a much less magnanimous view of it - he'll see it as a personal attack on his trustworthiness, which of course, it is. So it will add to the already existing tension between Harry and Lucas."

So that's for starters. This discussion has been seeping into the episode threads, so hopefully it will generate discussion here in its own right.

HellsBells · (This post was last modified: 04-12-2009 04:15 PM by HellsBells.)

One thing we don't really know is how their relationship started, was Lucas somebody Harry recruited or was he just another field agent working for Harry ?
I think Lucas still believes Harry was responsible for his time in a Russian prison

Spoiler: show

does anyone else think this ?
Harry lies to Lucas a lot and I don't understand why Lucas doesn't get annoyed with him, but then Lucas seems such a quiet/gentle sort of a person,

Spoiler: show

Sorry I am rambling....just putting down some random thoughts.

PS do we need to use spoilers in this thread ?

**JHyde** · 04-12-2009, 04:23 PM

My bad. I've amended the title of the thread and my first post to explain about spoilers.

I've never thought Harry was responsible for Lucas being caught in Moscow and then imprisoned. It was never clear how he was caught or who tipped the Russians off, but at this point unless there's something very big lurking in the shadows, I'd be surprised if it was a trade-off Harry made for whatever reason, and that would be the only way such a betrayal would take place.

As to how Lucas was recruited, I'm not sure, although his asking after Tom in 7.1 implied that he might have had a hand in his recruitment back in the 90s.

kirmostar · 04-12-2009, 05:02 PM

Maybe we'll find out in Season 9 - depending of course who lives to see it! Going by BBC Press Office it's not something that will be addressed in Season 8 but would love to know more about Lucas before he was captured - how he met Elizabeta for example, and how he prevented her finding out he was MI5. Interviews with RA state that Lucas passed as a Russian native - was Elizabeta fooled too?

almh · 04-12-2009, 05:03 PM

It will be interesting if we ever find out who sold Lucas to the Russians, and to see the effect it has on their relationship - I think we could be building up to something like that because we've had quite a big emphasis on Lucas's time in Russia. That could prove interesting...

I think it just meant that Tom was there when was, I don't think it implied anything much. I think the writers just added that in for the loyal fan, a link to the past that didn't really require much explanation for those who had never seen it before.

lwhite53 · 04-12-2009, 07:44 PM

(04-12-2009 03:03 PM)JHyde Wrote: In the episode 4 discussion thread were discussing Harry once again looking Lucas in the eyes and saying no, he doesn't know what he's talking about, when Lucas asks about Basel. Silktie responded with:
"Yeah, I'm not criticising Harry for lying to Lucas as he has extremely valid reasons for doing so, but my point is that Lucas is likely to take a much less magnanimous view of it - he'll see it as a personal attack on his trustworthiness, which of course, it is. So it will add to the already existing tension between Harry and Lucas."

As it turned out (at the end of ep 5), Ros was the more miffed at not being told about Basel. Lucas seemed to take it pretty much in stride. I said before on some thread (have lost track of where) that I think the issue between Harry and Lucas (at present) is more about trust than about truth. Harry lies to everyone (except Ruth) either by omission or comission -- I think they all expect that. What Lucas wants is Harry's absolute trust and if sacrificing truth now and then is the price, he'll pay it.

I don't believe Lucas's stint in the Russian prison was due to anything Harry did, or didn't do, as he's clearly demonstrated the lengths he'll go to to protect his agents. There may be a question however, in Lucas's mind, about why it took so long to get him back. And that would be a valid question, imo.

**JHyde** · 04-12-2009, 07:49 PM

I was trying to find that post! If you find it, re-post it. It was one of the ones I was looking for to start the conversation, but I didn't want to paraphrase.

**Silktie** · 05-12-2009, 01:26 PM

(04-12-2009 07:44 PM)lwhite53 Wrote: As it turned out (at the end of ep 5), Ros was the more miffed at not being told about Basel. Lucas seemed to take it pretty much in stride. I said before on some thread (have lost track of where) that I think the issue between Harry and Lucas (at present) is more about trust than about truth. Harry lies to everyone (except Ruth) either by omission or comission -- I think they all expect that. What Lucas wants is Harry's absolute trust and if sacrificing truth now and then is the price, he'll pay it.

That's a good analysis. But Lucas, through his actions in 8.6, have probably once again damaged Harry's trust in him. Harry trusted him enough to allow him to talk to Sarah alone, and Lucas promptly ruined it by going off comms, and then letting Sarah get away. Not sure Harry will appreciate that.

lwhite53 · (This post was last modified: 05-12-2009 03:33 PM by lwhite53.)

(05-12-2009 01:26 PM)Silktie Wrote:
(04-12-2009 07:44 PM)lwhite53 Wrote: As it turned out (at the end of ep 5), Ros was the more miffed at not being told about Basel. Lucas seemed to take it pretty much in stride. I said before on some thread (have lost track of where) that I think the issue between Harry and Lucas (at present) is more about trust than about truth. Harry lies to everyone (except Ruth) either by omission or comission -- I think they all expect that. What Lucas wants is Harry's absolute trust and if sacrificing truth now and then is the price, he'll pay it.

That's a good analysis. But Lucas, through his actions in 8.6, have probably once again damaged Harry's trust in him. Harry trusted him enough to allow him to talk to Sarah alone, and Lucas promptly ruined it by going off comms, and then letting Sarah get away. Not sure Harry will appreciate that.

You know, strangely enough, I think Harry actually expected that to happen (Lucas going off comms). I'm not sure H letting L go talk to Sarah alone was about trust so much as it was about H allowing L to learn for himself the dangers of the relationship. I think H learned with Tom and Christine that getting all pissy and quoting the rules was the wrong way to handle the situation and he won't do that again. H knows Sarah is disastrous for L (and not just for operational reasons) but he also knows that L has to discover that on his own.