Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[femaleBertieWooster]

(10-11-2010 04:59 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 08:57 AM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  The essence, of the following excerpt from an interview Marlon Brando did with Dick Cavett in 1973, works as a possible point the writers were trying to make via the Lucas/John story line:

"We [human beings] couldn't survive a second if we weren't able to act," Brando said. "Acting is a survival mechanism. It's a social unguent and it's a lubricant. We act to save our lives, actually, every day. People lie constantly every day by not saying something that they think, or [by] saying something that they didn't think."

"That's not acting," Cavett countered.

"That is acting," Brando insisted.

In other words, we are ALL actors and liars, everyday, if we truthfully reflect upon our own behavior; Lucas/John's story amplified those characteristics an hundred fold, but everyone on the grid and off, tell untruths to themselves and others, regularly. What makes Lucas/John so unforgivable, or the story line (from this point of view), so far fetched? The show is a lie, too, if you get down to it. The only "truths" about the show is that it is offered for entertainment, employs some wonderfully talented and creative people and draws a devoted audience. The characters we get attached to are really, unreal or untrue, lies, so to speak, yet... we fiercely defend them as if they weren't fabrications, but REAL, family even, so... we've deluded ourselves to care for imagined people that are actually just electrons being projected to us via our screens... yet... we FEEL passionately about them!

I say "Kudos to the KUDOS writers. Well done!"

See ya all [or most of ya all] next January when S10 commences. Seeing how Harry's baby "Section D" all came about throughout the years, would be fascinating to me... wonder who would get to play the young, Harry?

Every genre has it's conventions, and there are reasons why. One of conventions Spooks should be abiding by is that you don't turn your hero into the villain. But even if I give the Spooks writers a pass on this rule (and ignore series 7 and 8) and try to look at the story objectively, it doesn't work for me. The story is too poorly crafted.

It depends on too many coincidences: that two young Englishmen who look enough alike that one can use the other's passport meet each other in Dakar, that one has already applied to MI-5 but hasn't actually met anyone from MI-5, that neither seems to have any friends or relatives to report either missing.

Worst of all, no motivation is given or even suggested for why John blew up the embassy, developed a conscious, and continued to use Lucas's identity upon his return to England. From Alex's line to Harry about Lucas's story being a lie, I think we're meant to assume that Vaughn's flashback was the truer one. While I appreciate the idea and irony of a terrorist becoming someone who seeks to stop terrorism, I don't believe the change would happen within days or weeks, but rather be a gradual process of disillusionment over months or years.

Moreover, if seeing the destruction and death caused by the bomb was too much for John, how did he than bring himself to strangle Real Lucas? If the deaths weren't the reason, what was? Why didn't he try to do the good that Real Lucas would have done as John? There are plenty of ways he could have done good without becoming a spy for MI-5.

Nothing about this story makes sense to me. Nothing about this story even suggests that the writers tried to make it make sense. I feel like they started with the denouement of a showdown of Lucas and Harry and didn't care how they got there.

So I say to the the Kudos writers: Shame on you for this mess. Going forward you would do well to remember some basic rules that apply to all genres -
Character should drive plot, not the reverse.
Continuity and detail matter.
Respect the intelligence of your audience.

On a different note, why do so many people think that series 10 will involve a lengthy investigation into Harry's past? Since series 6 every cliffhanger has been resolved by the end of the first episode and every series arc barely mentioned in the next series. The writers could break with tradition, but my guess is that it already will have happened offscreen when the series begins, Harry will have been forced out, but will be recalled because of some crisis. I'd advise against getting your hopes up of getting any revelations or seeing old characters.

Very very very well thought out and stated.