[spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas.

[HellsBells]

Good point Belle, I had forgotten about her agreeing to spy on Lucas for Walker. Why did Walker suspect Lucas as being a double agent after his talk with Harry?
I think initially Sarah was using Lucas but then fell in love with him, whereas Lucas 'loved' Sarah but then realised she wasn't who he thought she was. Still this relationship made slightly more sense than Lucas and Maya.

[Belle]

I have no idea what so ever why Walker thought Lucas to be a double agent.
Maybe it had something to do with his history in Rusia, which I suspect Walker knew about, or with Nightingale, though I don't remember if Walker knew about that. (was it that what Harry and Walker talked about?) I clearly will have to rewatch S8 !
And indeed: Lucas + Maya =

[binkie]

First, I must say, I agree with everyone who has expressed an opinion of exasperation and disappointment over the whole eye-candy factor. It is an always tedious and patronising default setting for any character. I hate the implication that my interest in a character is founded on their appearance and that I am somehow being rewarded for cultivating an interest in that character by being shown him or her in increasing states of undress.

Back on topic...

Byatil, you are right, of course, in saying that we are left by the character of the writing with a requirement to draw our own conclusions regarding the nature and purpose of Lucas’ actions and motives. The alternative to speculation, though, would surely be to introduce a character to fulfil the function of a deus ex machina (in the manner of the character of the psychiatrist in the West Wing episode Noël), with the sole purpose of telling the audience what is really happening. I’m not sure how well this would sit in Spooks. And the speculation can be quite rewarding, if sometimes frustrating and inconclusive. At least it gives the good people of SF-land something to talk about To that end: I do think, before we are too hard on Lucas - or on season 8 (which did certainly have problems of its own) - we perhaps need to consider more the appearance of events and characters from his perspective.

Interpretations of Lucas’ relationship with Sarah are interesting, and motivate a useful opportunity to look again at her significance for Lucas as he wanted and needed her to be, rather than for what the privileged gaze of the audience knew her to be:

(03-02-2011 12:56 PM)Belle Wrote:  I think he sort of lost the ability to tell friend from foe if it didn't was directly related to his work

(01-02-2011 11:21 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Sarah allowed us to see a side of Lucas which we hadn't previously encountered, but aside from that, I tend to feel their relationship was just as shallow as John and Maya's.

(02-02-2011 04:17 PM)Silktie Wrote:  He kept on defending her long after he was given strong proof that she was bad.

These observations all highlight something different, and valuable, about Lucas’ state of mind (an element of continuing character development), and his position in the narrative of season 8 (an element of discrete storytelling). I tend to agree with Belle that, rather than being stupid or misguided in his relationship with Sarah, Lucas is in fact working through something of a condition of confusion and emotional rehabilitation. I am not convinced that he is at all ignorant of her deviousness, or that he is foolish or weak-willed to offer defence of her once the full extent of her complicity in the Nightingale set-up is revealed. It seems to me that Lucas’ emotional investment, and hope for equal reward, in his relationship with Sarah has less to do with a surrender to hormones and rather more to do with an inability to judge the measure of human relationships apart from their tendency to compromise and betrayal. He knows Sarah is lying to him, he knows she is exploiting him, and he knows she is in a position of moral confusion about at least some of her actions. In other words, he knows she is as flawed and incapable of emotional acquiescence as he is himself. This is, I suspect, more reassuring than it is alienating.

The most sustained, invested, reciprocal relationship Lucas has had in the immediate past was the one had with Oleg. Just because he can remember that this is not a ‘normal relationship’, and just because he knows that he has been capable of sustaining relationships that were not like this one, do not suffice to negate the awful appeal of any kind of human-to-human recognition and response, no matter how brutal or humiliating. I am not comparing Sarah with Oleg; neither am I suggesting that Lucas has normalised his relationship with Oleg to the point that he is incapable of seeing that his relationship with Sarah is fractured and – almost certainly – doomed. However, I do think it would be a mistake to suppose that Lucas can simply snap back into the pursuit, or execution, of an equal trust- or dependency-relationship. Yes, he knew Sarah was ‘bad’, and yes, he knew their relationship was ‘shallow’, but he also knew she was hollow because when she looked at him he saw only himself. She is the best he can hope for, because she is all he can acknowledge as emotionally capable in himself. Lucas isn’t stupid in his relationship with Sarah, he is a wreck drifting for port.

[HellsBells]

So do the series 9 DVD extras explain the Lucas is John storyline or is it still a poorly written idea?

[Byatil]

(05-03-2011 06:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  So do the series 9 DVD extras explain the Lucas is John storyline or is it still a poorly written idea?

It's poorly written, but I find it just about feasible that Lucas could be John.




Okay, well no... I'm still not convinced. They just didn't take the time to explain how Lucas could have been living under this façade for 15 years. If we complete disregard the entire plot concerning Maya and Vaughn, and take it simply as John deciding to pretend to be someone else (therefore also disregarding the ridiculous infiltration of MI5), then it kind of works?
But really, you cannot build an entire series around that. It just doesn't make sense for Lucas not to be who he says he is, at least, not to that extent. We saw a successful example of a similar plot with Tom Quinn and Ellie; no, he wasn't exactly who he said he was, and that did have disastrous consequences, but it wasn't ridiculously unbelievable on top of being completely unexplainable.
The more the director and executive producer attempt to justify it, the more annoyed I find myself getting It's a poorly thought out character development, and that's really all there is to it as far as I can see. As someone commented on the S9 DVD thread, RA doesn't even seem to know what's happening with his character. And really, if the actor doesn't quite know what he's supposed to be portraying, how can we hold much faith in the character?

[HellsBells]

I agree that there was not enough time given to the story that Lucas is John, we had two series to develop Lucas's character but only one to destroy it.
I think it may have worked if John wasn't so evil and Lucas wasn't so good. How can you go from being a 'hash-head' (mentioned in the 9.7 commentary) capable of the premeditated slaughter of innocent people to an excellent top MI5 recruit?
Disappointingly there was no mention how Lucas survived the torture in the Russian prison without revealing his true identity.

[WhiteSwan]

Do they give any explanation in the commentaries as to why JB suddenly decided to be a good person? When did that mysterious transformation take place? What or who made it happen? It couldn't have anything to do with JB meeting Harry as that happened afterwards. It couldn't have anything to do with JB feeling pity with his victims after he had blown up the embassy - as he then goes and kills his "friend" without a real reason, so killing must have been fun for him. And he doesn't seem to be capable of having pity with anyone anyway. So why on earth does someone like that suddenly decide to be a good, moral person?

[Nitrus]

Thread closed because it has reached 50 pages.