[spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas.

[Nitrus]

Last night's episode supported every one of my arguments. He even betrayed Malcolm, surely he is rotten to the core!

[khandy]

(26-10-2010 07:15 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  Last night's episode supported every one of my arguments. He even betrayed Malcolm, surely he is rotten to the core!

Nitrus I agree he looks rotten but I think what you upset people about with your previous post was not allowing us the opinion that the Lucas story Arc is poor writing which asks us to forget the character they have given us in previous series. His actions in this series don't make any sense. I hope they do come the end of the series.

I realise that Lucas Fans are a minority but that doesn't mean our views are less valid.

[Nitrus]

You've got to understand this, I do not think of your views as less valid than anyone else's. I'm not denying you an opinion. I'm just proposing an argument against what you believe.

The issue for me is that what the writers are doing DOES make sense. But you can't see that because you've made Lucas out to be this holier than thou god-like figure who you relentlessly believe is loyal to the last. Which just isn't the case in my opinion.

He's a spy who was betrayed by his country and left to rot in a Russian prison for 8 years, how can he possibly act rationally after that? His actions are completely justifiable, I just don't think you can bring yourself to admit that because you idolise him.

[khandy]

Nitrus I am a 45 year old mother I don't idolise him.

My thoughts are that at this point I don't believe this has anything to do with his imprisonment in Russia it stems from much earlier.

I am also finding it hard to accept that he is doing this all because he loves Maya so much. It is too ridiculous for words. I am hoping that there is more to it than that. They have shown me nothing that indicates how much he loves Maya or why.

[Nitrus]

Well if they gave you all that info right on the spot it wouldn't be much of a storyline would it. Don't you like the journey of finding all of that out?

[WhiteSwan]

(26-10-2010 07:15 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  Last night's episode supported every one of my arguments. He even betrayed Malcolm, surely he is rotten to the core!

Sure, and because he's rotten to the core he risked his life and his freedom in 7.7 to save Harry. I find that impossible to believe!
Of course he has flaws - nothing would be more boring than someone who's perfect. But IMO there is a huge difference between a man who has flaws and makes mistakes and a man who is evil and rotten to the core.

[NightOwl]

(26-10-2010 07:39 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  You've got to understand this, I do not think of your views as less valid than anyone else's. I'm not denying you an opinion. I'm just proposing an argument against what you believe.

The issue for me is that what the writers are doing DOES make sense. But you can't see that because you've made Lucas out to be this holier than thou god-like figure who you relentlessly believe is loyal to the last. Which just isn't the case in my opinion.

He's a spy who was betrayed by his country and left to rot in a Russian prison for 8 years, how can he possibly act rationally after that? His actions are completely justifiable, I just don't think you can bring yourself to admit that because you idolise him.

Wow. Maybe we should talk about something less contentious like politics or religion.

The storyline isn't working for a number of us who believe that the characterzation of Lucas is inconsistent with series 7 and 8. It has nothing to do with idolizing him or believing him to be a "holier than thou god-like figure" (I believe that would be a better description of the Harry fans!)

It does have to do with the numerous scenes throughout series 7 and 8 when Lucas explicitly showed or stated his loyalty to Harry and MI-5, starting with his "I''m MI-5" speech to Elizabeta. It does have to do with the fact that Elizabeta is the woman he thought about during his imprisonment and wanted to return to, but it's Maya he's now so desperate to be with that he'll betray his country. It does have to do with the fact that while Lucas has lost control of his emotions and made bad decisions at times so has pretty much every other character on the show.

You say Lucas can't act rationally after what he's been through and his actions are justifiable. But I'd say that the premise of the character has been that he can act rationally, that he can put what happened to him in a box (to paraphrase Tom). From taking down Kachimov and Dasharvin, to remaining calm when defusing bombs, to earning the respect of his colleagues, Lucas has been shown to be rational and capable. Is it realistic? Probably not. But it's what the writers have given us. What they haven't given us is any reason to believe that Lucas's actions are motivated or caused by what happened to him in Russia.

[A Cousin]

(26-10-2010 09:10 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  Wow. Maybe we should talk about something less contentious like politics or religion.

LOL! I find that little is less contentious. It is a testament to the writers that they can create characters (all of them) that we connect with so vehemently. But at least we are finally getting to the crux of the problem for those who feel Lucas is being ruined.

(26-10-2010 09:10 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  The storyline isn't working for a number of us who believe that the characterzation of Lucas is inconsistent with series 7 and 8. It has nothing to do with idolizing him or believing him to be a "holier than thou god-like figure" (I believe that would be a better description of the Harry fans!)

Now, now was that last comment really necessary? That implies that we should be choosing favorites. Is it a choice between the two because I certainly hope not. I try to embrace all of the characters, their individual plot lines and their POVs as it pertains to the overall themes of each series. Spooks at its heart is an ensemble piece. One character is no less important than another. Which leads me to my next point.

Before I make it, let me just go on the record as saying that my next comment is not directed only to you Nightowl, but to everyone on this thread who believe that the Lucas character is being inconsistently portrayed thus far in S9.

My gripe is with the writers too but for a different reason. I think they neglected properly developing the character of Lucas through S7 and S8. He has been a character that I have had a very hard time understanding and connecting with. Many of you have expressed in this very thread that you feel in the minority in your understanding of Lucas as illustrated by the penchant for defending him so passionately. That's not your fault. It is the fault of the writers for not making Lucas a character more could relate to in S7 and S8. I do thank all of you for helping me understand him better. However, for me, he was developed in S7 and S8 as a one-trick-pony kind of character: damaged but loyal. S9 and especially 9.6 was the first time I have had any kind of sympathy and emotional connection with Lucas. I have finally been able to see the duality of his character because of everything that has happened to him, how he tortures himself and fights to maintain his honorable and loyal side despite the horrors he has been through. A fight he happens to be losing at the moment. I don't think that is character assassination. I think the Lucas character is finally getting his well deserved and long awaited development.

And stepping back from Lucas to the programme as a whole, I think his charcter arc this series is successfully illustrating the overall theme of how they live with the choices they make as well as how they lose their "selves" because of the decisions they make. Lucas has lost the music. He epitomizes the ultimate loss of self - literally and figuratively.

Also for the record, I ain't buying the Maya thing either but it isn't over yet. However, while his very honorable love for Maya is a portion of it, what is really sending him over the edge is the secret of his life as John yet to be revealed. But what happened to him in Russia makes how he reacts to (whatever it is) that happened to him prior to joining the service in a different way. He is not the John he was when he became Lucas. He can't be. I think that though Lucas' melt down, the writers have so far successfully given us something I find fascinating to explore.

[BravoNine]

Oh you have no idea how much I LOVE your post A Cousin!! Well said!!

I don't mind at all this storyline of pushing Lucas to the brink where his desperation is pushing him into doing things that he would not do before. I've always known that there is a dark side to Lucas, and this storyline brings that side out of him and I find it fascinating to watch him having this internal struggle of which side to choose. I don't have a problem with the writers as long as I can see Lucas struggling with the choice of turning against his people, I don't have a problem with the writers as long as they don't just turn around and say that Lucas is completely evil with no remorse. It is not that I have a hard time accepting the possibility of Lucas being a traitor, it is that I have to see a GOOD reason for his choices, and as right now the writers aren't giving us the big reasons, I'm just fearing that we won't see those reasons and THAT is where my problem is.

I can accept any storyline for Lucas as long as I see good reasons, but as of right now, the writers are holding back this big dark terrible secret that is making Lucas do this, so all I can hope for is that this big secret is worth Lucas's struggle with himself.

And Nitrus, you may say that you don't think our views are less valid, but you keep on making these assumptions and statements that ALL of us are just clouded in our views because we idolize Lucas, and frankly, the way your words are phrased is why I feel like you think your views are better and that we Lucas fans should just listen to you and stop putting him on a pedestal. And the thing is, none of us are putting him on a pedestal, none of us are thinking he is holier than thou god-like person, we have admitted that we know he is flawed, we have admitted that Lucas is not always perfect, he has a maverick streak where he's always running off doing things his own way, but in our view, we have seen multiple times where Lucas risked his own life and safety for this team and in those moments, we see his loyalty, we see his bravery, and we believe that Lucas is a loyal agent who will protect his people. Our beliefs have nothing to do with idolization, our beliefs comes from what we see on screen, we choose to believe the good side of Lucas. That is not wrong nor are we just delusional fans who thinks of nothing but making Lucas out to be this perfect person.

Your counter-argument to us is that you think the writers make sense, and that we are just viewing Lucas as a perfect god-like creature so we won't admit his mistakes and flaws, frankly your assumption that we won't admit his wrongs because we think he is so god-like is what I find condescending about your posts as if you are the only one who is objective and we are not. We have our beliefs from what we have seen for 2 series, if that doesn't fit your views, it doesn't mean we just think he's god-like and won't admit it. We like to believe in the goodness of Lucas and we clearly see that these decisions are haunting him and eating him up inside, we don't believe he is a rotten character to the core. And if you disagree, that's fine, but the way you phrase your words makes me feel like you are just intent on crushing our beliefs and making us agreeing with you because you are objective and we are just delusional.

[molecatcher]

As someone who follows Spooks for its brilliant scripts with no real affiliation to any one character now Ros has gone, I can sort of see both sides of the argument here. I agree with what Nitrus says that the direction they have taken Lucas does make some sense. He was in a pretty sorry state in the last series once he got involved with that CIA blonde cut-out character. He seems to crave a relationship, any relationship because he has nothing in his life. The way he's behaving is bizarre but not completely out of character. They did the same to Harry at the start of the series getting his head all messed up and Ruth is nothing like her old self. Trust the script writers. It's Spooks folks so there's bound to be one hell of a twist towards the end.