Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[AnnMarie]

(09-11-2010 01:32 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  Let me start shouting:

Seriously? It's Richard Armitage's fault and not the writers? Seriously?

So if RA hadn't given his notice, Lucas would have what? What's the "real" ending the that the writers wanted that would have pleased us all but RA thwarted. How was this mess of plot actually supposed to end? All would be forgiven? Lucas would have returned as Section Chief and lived happily ever after?

The writers chose Lucas's fate, plain and simple. They created the idea of the Dakar and false identity. They had Lucas sell Albany to the Chinese. It seems quite clear to me that the writers knew at least halfway through the series that RA was not returning. (Although who made that decision, RA or TPTB, is not clear.) They made the choices that lead directly to the rooftop scene, not RA.

Please don't defend the idiocy of the the writers by slurring the actor.

NightOwl you are exactly right on here.

[ausfan]

Please someone upload this series to Youtube, I watched 8 that way. I cant take the wait.

[molecatcher]

(09-11-2010 04:41 AM)femaleBertieWooster Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 12:25 AM)molecatcher Wrote:  Poor Lucas but what a brave way to exit.

Brave? He probably took out a street vendor when he landed.

Think you'll find he took aim at a car roof; the alarm went off as someone screamed!

---

I fail to see what is so unbelievable about someone having a dark, murky past and doing their best to cover it up. Lucas did such a good job he fooled everyone, that's the crux of it.

The scene on the roof with Harry and Lucas was obviously shot later on because PF had lost all that weight compared to how he looked in the rest of the episode so it must have been the second option for Kudos. If RA has been saying he didn't know if Lucas survived or not I'd imagine that means he survived the original ending and he didn't know which they'd use. We don't know if his decision to leave meant they needed to kill him off because originally they planned to have him back on the Grid as an even more damaged individual, after all Harry told him he was invaluable. He certainly couldn't walk away a free man.

[redlyn]

(09-11-2010 01:40 PM)AnnMarie Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 01:32 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  Let me start shouting:

Seriously? It's Richard Armitage's fault and not the writers? Seriously?

So if RA hadn't given his notice, Lucas would have what? What's the "real" ending the that the writers wanted that would have pleased us all but RA thwarted. How was this mess of plot actually supposed to end? All would be forgiven? Lucas would have returned as Section Chief and lived happily ever after?

The writers chose Lucas's fate, plain and simple. They created the idea of the Dakar and false identity. They had Lucas sell Albany to the Chinese. It seems quite clear to me that the writers knew at least halfway through the series that RA was not returning. (Although who made that decision, RA or TPTB, is not clear.) They made the choices that lead directly to the rooftop scene, not RA.

Please don't defend the idiocy of the the writers by slurring the actor.

NightOwl you are exactly right on here.

The writers will have the overriding series story arc planned before the shooting starts even if they do not have the actually scripts yet for the whole series. Since shooting starting in February long before RA was cast in the Hobbit, it is obviousl that they had decided to overturn his character from the beginning of this series. The suitcase was introduced in the first episode remember. So to assume that they wrote it this way because RA got cast in something else is just illogical.

I have no problem with Lucas dying considering the mess they had made of his backstory: it was the need for that particular backstory which I question.

I have watched Spooks since the beginning so I'm not an RA newbie but the regret I feel over the shoddy writing is immense. This was dishonest television and we deserved better.

[Tea Lady]

(09-11-2010 01:32 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  Let me start shouting:

Seriously? It's Richard Armitage's fault and not the writers? Seriously?

So if RA hadn't given his notice, Lucas would have what? What's the "real" ending the that the writers wanted that would have pleased us all but RA thwarted. How was this mess of plot actually supposed to end? All would be forgiven? Lucas would have returned as Section Chief and lived happily ever after?

The writers chose Lucas's fate, plain and simple. They created the idea of the Dakar and false identity. They had Lucas sell Albany to the Chinese. It seems quite clear to me that the writers knew at least halfway through the series that RA was not returning. (Although who made that decision, RA or TPTB, is not clear.) They made the choices that lead directly to the rooftop scene, not RA.

Please don't defend the idiocy of the the writers by slurring the actor.

I am defending the writers because NONE OF US know what went on behind the scenes this series, and whether this ending was rushed or not, or had to be changed at the last minute after filming finished in July. I was putting forward an argument based on the evidence presented which is that the ending seemed to "not quite fit" compared to past series, and that perhaps Lucas North MAY have had a better ending, had Richard Armitage not gone for the Hobbit. I'm not blaming him. Who am I to blame him. I am just putting forward a reasonable argument as to why Lucas' end, was as it was. I don't think I was slurring the actor either so do not slur me by saying I was. Anyway, who wouldn't leave for an opportunity like that.

There is no point shouting and screaming at this because it is just a TV programme and as I say (again) none of us know what went on behind the scenes in terms of RA leaving. As for keeping actors in the dark about their fates, do people here have inside knowledge about the actors contracts with Kudos and the various get out clauses? I don't think so, so how on earth do any of us know what has gone on? We don't know. How can you defend what you don't know?

[Logsie]

The actors themselves, RA included, have gone on the record to say that they never know if their character will make it to the end of the episode until they open their script. They don't get them very far in advance so they get about two or three weeks notice at most. The only exception is where the actor himself has requested an exit so he/she is involved in discussions with the writers before hand.

[ausfan]

Bit carried away people, they are actors they move on.
the writers usually have most of the series scripted if not ready to go before they film, the fact he wanted to leave would have been know well in advance, its a tv show after all, not much point blaming anyone.

[HellsBells]

I think I just wished all through this episode that either Harry would find a way to help Lucas out of this mess or that Lucas would redeem himself. I thought he might have shot the Chinese and returned Albany to Harry.
There was an interview with RA (just before the new series started) who said if Lucas was to be written out he would want him to go quietly, I guess jumping off a building without even a scream counts.

[Kazters]

tealady you are right in fact the special features for is it s5 is hermione , peter and miranda actualy saying they dont know from script to script if they are going to make it out alive let alone series to series!

there is no doubt it was a joint decision for Armitage to leave even before he was cast in the hobbit clearly his focus was elsewhere i.e. films. but it isnt anyones fault usualy its only 3 years we get a main chractor for anyway

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 04:03 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I think I just wished all through this episode that either Harry would find a way to help Lucas out of this mess or that Lucas would redeem himself. I thought he might have shot the Chinese and returned Albany to Harry.
There was an interview with RA (just before the new series started) who said if Lucas was to be written out he would want him to go quietly, I guess jumping off a building without even a scream counts.

Well the car alarms did go off, those usually are very loud...

I know it's unfair that I blame Harry and that there probably was nothing he could really do to stop Lucas from walking down this path, but a part of me can't ever stop blaming him for not trying hard enough. Why is it that he has such a hard time just telling the truth? He lied to Lucas about Sugarhorse and then turned around and expected Lucas to tell him everything he remembers despite the torture. He lied to Lucas about Nightingale until it was too big and he needed the team to help. And now it's the same with Albany, he keeps on not telling Lucas until things are too late to change. And while I understand Harry's reasons for it, I don't think I'll ever stop blaming him for not trying to turn things around before they became too late. He had a chance to really try hard to end this, and he didn't even try.

I know Lucas/John jumping off is rather cowardly because he couldn't take going back to prison now he had nothing to live for. But you can always think that he jumped because OUR Lucas is still in there fighting evil John, and that OUR Lucas knew that he had to end this before John hurts anymore people. Think of this as OUR Lucas's sacrifice one last time to save his team and the people who matters.

That's how I get through this....