Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[Kazters]

I always thought lucas was a very one sided character but I put it down to Russia. His death dosnt bother me because he was right there wAs no comming back from it ad he couldn't do jail. I dont think his character was strong enough to lead section d he offered no support and training to his younger officers like Tom and Adam did with Danny etc, that said it was a rather fast persononality change from hero to villain. But I'm glad it looks like we have Alex who has the wit of ros and Adam in telling Harry what they think which Lucas was missing.

I liked this ep until the roof it just felt rushed

[tastiger]

(10-11-2010 06:40 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Lucas North had so much potential as a character, so much promise, so many interesting back-stories they could have fleshed out, so many plausible storylines they could have taken to shown he was broken and damaged, yet they chose to run with a storyline that destroyed his best quality of loyalty to his team and then his dignity.

And honestly, it's ruined my enjoyment of the last 2 series, because now every time I see Lucas, all I will think about is how it's just all lies and pretend, that he didn't care, that it was all for Maya.

After watching what his end came to be, I wished that he had died in that Russian jail, or died when he went to Moscow to clear Harry's name, or died from that bullet he received escaping the kill squad, or died when Sarah was going to execute him, or died in that bomb blast that killed Ros, at least then I won't have to watch him turn into this monster that I don't even recognize.

I guess Lucas is the first Spook to fight so hard to stay loyal, fight so hard to make things right, and end up dying in disgrace.

Great post!!! I feel cheated too. There is so much frustration I have with this whole messed up storyline. 3 seasons with Lucas and we still don't know him at all....a real Jekyll & Hyde.

[BravoNine]

(10-11-2010 07:48 AM)tastiger Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 06:40 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Lucas North had so much potential as a character, so much promise, so many interesting back-stories they could have fleshed out, so many plausible storylines they could have taken to shown he was broken and damaged, yet they chose to run with a storyline that destroyed his best quality of loyalty to his team and then his dignity.

And honestly, it's ruined my enjoyment of the last 2 series, because now every time I see Lucas, all I will think about is how it's just all lies and pretend, that he didn't care, that it was all for Maya.

After watching what his end came to be, I wished that he had died in that Russian jail, or died when he went to Moscow to clear Harry's name, or died from that bullet he received escaping the kill squad, or died when Sarah was going to execute him, or died in that bomb blast that killed Ros, at least then I won't have to watch him turn into this monster that I don't even recognize.

I guess Lucas is the first Spook to fight so hard to stay loyal, fight so hard to make things right, and end up dying in disgrace.

Great post!!! I feel cheated too. There is so much frustration I have with this whole messed up storyline. 3 seasons with Lucas and we still don't know him at all....a real Jekyll & Hyde.

At least Jekyll and Hyde made sense.....Lucas/John didn't....

Anyways, I should probably stop talking about how much this upsets me because I'll just start crying again.....

I had just managed to lift myself out of the dreadful grieving fog I was under, I don't want to go back in again.....

[JHyde]

My main issue with this episode was that there was no real suspense. For me, that is the conversation stopper. This show has always been high on the suspense front and it was really lacking in this, ESPECIALLY for a season finale.

Even my least fave seasons came home with great episodes and perhaps that's why I'm holding a grudge against season 9 as a whole.

[Caitlinhg]

The essence, of the following excerpt from an interview Marlon Brando did with Dick Cavett in 1973, works as a possible point the writers were trying to make via the Lucas/John story line:

"We [human beings] couldn't survive a second if we weren't able to act," Brando said. "Acting is a survival mechanism. It's a social unguent and it's a lubricant. We act to save our lives, actually, every day. People lie constantly every day by not saying something that they think, or [by] saying something that they didn't think."

"That's not acting," Cavett countered.

"That is acting," Brando insisted.

In other words, we are ALL actors and liars, everyday, if we truthfully reflect upon our own behavior; Lucas/John's story amplified those characteristics an hundred fold, but everyone on the grid and off, tell untruths to themselves and others, regularly. What makes Lucas/John so unforgivable, or the story line (from this point of view), so far fetched? The show is a lie, too, if you get down to it. The only "truths" about the show is that it is offered for entertainment, employs some wonderfully talented and creative people and draws a devoted audience. The characters we get attached to are really, unreal or untrue, lies, so to speak, yet... we fiercely defend them as if they weren't fabrications, but REAL, family even, so... we've deluded ourselves to care for imagined people that are actually just electrons being projected to us via our screens... yet... we FEEL passionately about them!

I say "Kudos to the KUDOS writers. Well done!"

See ya all [or most of ya all] next January when S10 commences. Seeing how Harry's baby "Section D" all came about throughout the years, would be fascinating to me... wonder who would get to play the young, Harry?

[dalia]

There are some things I don´t understand very good, but maybe I´m missing something as English isn´t my mother tongue (I´m from Czech Republic), but:
1. What was the significance of the ship picture Lucas found in that archive? Was it just "something" to give there so that it wouldn´t be empty, when the real file was secret, or had it a special meaning?
2. Why did Lucas give Albany to the Chinese after Maya died? He was interested in the money and new identity only to start a new life with her. So I quite expected him to return the file to Harry and then shoot himself or something like that, but if he already knew how the file was dangerous (and didn´t know it was a fake), then why? Was he so broken that he just acted "by persistence", did what he planned without thinking? Or was it the only organised thing which stayed to him and so he simply "wanted to finish the mission"?
3. Why all these measures because of Albany when the responsible persons knew it was a fake? To mystify foreign secret services, so that they go after it and divert their attention from the really important things?

I have to say the acting was really brilliant, first of all Lucas, Harry and Ruth, very convincing and great. But the story makes me sad in some sense. I don´t consider Lucas/John a rogue, I believe he was a brave and good person, just made a big mistake in his youth and was misused by Vaughan and his bosses (were it in Dakar already the Chinese?). I think the blame for the people from the embassy is in the first place on these people who ordered it, without John Vaughan would find someone else for it and the people would die anyway. Then again, we don´t know how the real Lucas was, only that he wanted to be a spy. We don´t know who he would become, a good or bad spy? A hero or a traitor? But we know what John did with his new identity, it was him who gave the "capacity" to this Lucas North we´ve seen, and we saw under other circumstances (when he would have "meet Harry first" - that dialogue on the roof was wonderful and very true) he would be a brave, compatient and good man. He did risk his life for his friends, colleagues and country many times, he suffered a lot in the prison but it didn´t broke him, he was reluctant to kill people if not necessary. I guess it was a good but tragical personality. What a pity the authors choose this ending for him...

[BravoNine]

(10-11-2010 08:57 AM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  The essence, of the following excerpt from an interview Marlon Brando did with Dick Cavett in 1973, works as a possible point the writers were trying to make via the Lucas/John story line:

"We [human beings] couldn't survive a second if we weren't able to act," Brando said. "Acting is a survival mechanism. It's a social unguent and it's a lubricant. We act to save our lives, actually, every day. People lie constantly every day by not saying something that they think, or [by] saying something that they didn't think."

"That's not acting," Cavett countered.

"That is acting," Brando insisted.

In other words, we are ALL actors and liars, everyday, if we truthfully reflect upon our own behavior; Lucas/John's story amplified those characteristics an hundred fold, but everyone on the grid and off, tell untruths to themselves and others, regularly. What makes Lucas/John so unforgivable, or the story line (from this point of view), so far fetched? The show is a lie, too, if you get down to it. The only "truths" about the show is that it is offered for entertainment, employs some wonderfully talented and creative people and draws a devoted audience. The characters we get attached to are really, unreal or untrue, lies, so to speak, yet... we fiercely defend them as if they weren't fabrications, but REAL, family even, so... we've deluded ourselves to care for imagined people that are actually just electrons being projected to us via our screens... yet... we FEEL passionately about them!

I say "Kudos to the KUDOS writers. Well done!"

See ya all [or most of ya all] next January when S10 commences. Seeing how Harry's baby "Section D" all came about throughout the years, would be fascinating to me... wonder who would get to play the young, Harry?

Well, if you say it like that, then why the heck am I watching this show? If it's just all bunch of lies and that I should just swallow it because life is one gigantic stupid lie and that the writers can do whatever the hell they want because everything is a lie, then what distinguishes a good storyline from a bad one?

Why not just have Section D blow up? Why not just have Harry revealed to be the most evil person on the planet?

If you see it that way and it's so easy for you to accept, then is there such a thing as far-fetched?

if UFOs start showing up or evil robots or aliens, would that be okay? I mean, why not? Everything is fair game when their job is just to entertain and show untruths and lies.....aliens and ghosts are fun! Why not add them into the storylines?

Why not get a storyline of aliens attacking Thames House and Section D saving the world? Oh but it's just entertainment and a little lie? I mean, for all we know aliens exist! Who cares if it's science fiction, but it's fun!

If that's the road the writers wanna take, go ahead, but I'm not going down that ridiculous stupid pit with them.

These characters aren't liars and we can't trust what the writers write, why the hell should people be stupid enough to be devoted or connected to them? It's just silly little lies for entertainment's sake right?

I mean, if Tariq ends up an axe murderer or Harry is mentally insane, oh that's great storyline ideas, I mean, people are just liars and everything is a lie. It's perfect! Of course since this show is fake and a lie, the writers are allowed to do whatever they want, of course, who cares about logic or common sense. Let's just lie lie and lie some more!

Nobody wants logic or quality after all right? I mean, it's just a lie, who the hell cares?

I got an idea, let's revealed that the whole team faked their identities! I mean, they all lie right? So why not? Let's just reveal that Section D is actually a terrorist group hell bent on taking over the world and they're just biding their time! How cool is that!

I'm sorry but I just find it stupid. If it's a lie, if that's just how the writers are trying to justify it, then I'm done with this show. I don't care anymore, I have plenty of other shows that care more about their characters and their fans to go down this route.

[nicky_84]

I was in shock after monday's finale,at one stage i thought my heart was going to leap out of my chest,would have loved to have been connected to a heart monitor.
I knew that Lucas would die,there was no way back for him really,was routing for Harry to survive the rooftop confrontation. I hope Harry is in next series,spooks without Harry is just wrong.

[BoHenley]

(Still reading through all your posts)

24 hours after watching it here in Oz, and enjoying the fabulous scenes between RA/NW (I thought she'd had it there for a while) and RA/PF, I still feel profoundly sad at Lucas's demise. In the end, he was a pitiable, tragic and tortured character. The final confrontation with Harry saying "I wish you'd met me first," and Lucas "So do I..." was quite heart-wrenching, and I'm not the sort who gets emotionally involved. That Lucas quietly stepped off the roof (off-camera) was so subtly and tastefully done - thank you Kudos and BBC. (Recall RA's comment "I like to go out [of the series] quietly..."). As others have said, Lucas had nothing left to live for, he couldn't go back to prison (and I understand that), and, saddest of all, he'd lost himself (Harry: "Who are you?") And yes, Lucas "won't get so much as a funeral."

I did like Alec White - wish they'd given him more to do. Then again, I can say that about Dimitri...

Like so many others, I think I'm left with more questions.

a) How on earth did Lucas suddenly acquire all that equipment, cars, bomb-that-looks-like-a-fridge, and computer knowledge that outclasses Tariq - in a matter of hours?

b) Why did Maya leave with Lucas after Alec told her what Lucas had done? And why especially after she said "You lied" (or similar - and her one and only half-decent scene) did she AGAIN get back in the car with him? If he was clinging to her to relive his past when things were "normal," then it makes a gram of sense. A gram. But really, the Maya thing was poorly done.

c) Why didn't Harry tell him Albany didn't work? They could've trapped the Chinese agents, done some diplomatic deal, and partly-redeemed Lucas.

d) So what was the point of Albany at all? Why not tie Lucas's unhinging with his torture (and add some "brainwashing") in Russia? THAT would've made more sense. "Albany" could have been a "trigger" word, and Vaughan (and Maya?) a Russian handler. I didn't dislike the Dakar story, it just meant we had to believe that Lucas was everything the other two series had shown him NOT to be.

e) And Malcolm disappears into thin air?

_______________ edited in_______
f) I cannot believe that MI5's vetting process is that bad. SURELY there'd have to be fingerprints, iris-recognition, facial recognition etc etc etc. No, no, NO!
______________________________

My opinion (and it's my opinion only) is that I still feel partly cheated with this S9 storyline, mostly because of the character assassination of Lucas. But don't get me wrong, I REALLY DID enjoy it, parts of it were absolutely superb, the H/R relationship (?) frustrating, and found Lucas's self-destruction mesmerising. Brilliant acting as always by PF, NW, and RA, newcomers SM and MB, and the fella that played Alec White.

The footage I watched didn't have the "Back in 2011" bit - thanks for the update!

[Tigerwolf]

Just found this

At 9pm the ninth series of Spooks ended as Lucas North (Richard Armitage) went on the run and Section D had to hunt him down. The spy drama bowed out with 5.4 million viewers but was beaten by the concluding part of The Little House on ITV1 which had 6.1 million viewers. Giles and Sue Live the Good Life on BBC Two at 9pm had 1.6 million viewers while Coppers on Channel Four had 3 million. Channel Five's best rating of the evening was for Extreme Fishing with Robson Green at 9pm which had 1.5 million viewers. The Gadget Show at 8pm had 1.1 million viewers while Neighbours pulled in 1.4 million viewers at 5.30pm. Be A Star on Neighbours beforehand had 800,000 viewers while Home and Away at 6pm had 1 million viewers.