Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

pook · 16-11-2010, 01:30 PM

More holes than a Swiss cheese... Agree with the above points, binkie, conniesachs etc.

I can only think that the writers fell into the usual trap of long-running series and tried to out-do themselves in terms of storyline. They went for maximum drama and shock value (with logic taking a back seat) and capitalised on the brilliant acting skills of RA, PF and NW. The result was unrealistic but displayed just what these actors are capable of.

Think I need a good few hours watching Ros, Adam, Zaf, Zoe etc in order to restore my faith in Spooks writers....

Gold Cormorant · 17-11-2010, 04:22 AM

I was re-watching the episode before my literary criticism class tonight and was thinking about how much I wished Dimitri had a bigger part. You know, like not just running around saying, "It's not Lucas!" and "Ruth's gone!" And then I went to class and saw a kid who looks just like him. He also doesn't have a large speaking role. Guess what his name is? Alec. I started cracking up.

bruwitch2 · 29-11-2010, 08:55 PM

I prefer Lucas died that in prison.

BravoNine · 29-11-2010, 09:09 PM

Something was bothering me this morning when I woke up......

When Lucas said to Ruth that she was the only person he worried would find out, did he know that she had known beforehand that he was doing bad things? I was not under the impression that he even knew Ruth was onto him, so if he thought Ruth found out the same time as the others, why would Lucas only worry about her finding out? Isn't that sort of a moot point by then?

Kirayuki · (This post was last modified: 29-11-2010 10:00 PM by Kirayuki.)

The point he was making is that she is so 'bloody good' at her job. (As she used to put it). Ruth is known for being able to get hold of pretty much any information she wants from any institution in the country. She is clever and always finds out what's going on... She's naturally inquisitive too. So it's not a surprise that he would fear her skills at finding him out.

**WhiteSwan** · (This post was last modified: 29-11-2010 10:03 PM by WhiteSwan.)

Maybe another point I should add to my list of plotholes? I'm still working on it and it's getting longer and longer...

Kirayuki · 29-11-2010, 10:10 PM

How is Lucas' line to Ruth a plot-hole? I just explained it. It's pretty simple to me. I don't mean to rock the boat but i really don't get it. Care to elaborate a little more?

BravoNine · 29-11-2010, 10:17 PM

(29-11-2010 10:10 PM)Kirayuki Wrote: How is Lucas' line to Ruth a plot-hole? I just explained it. It's pretty simple to me. I don't mean to rock the boat but i really don't get it. Care to elaborate a little more?

I think what WhiteSwan means is that when Lucas said he had been "so careful", he really wasn't that careful if Beth found the real Lucas in seconds and Alec found out where John went to school.

Seems like a silly job of erasing evidence.....

Kirayuki · 29-11-2010, 10:20 PM

(29-11-2010 10:17 PM)BravoNine Wrote:
(29-11-2010 10:10 PM)Kirayuki Wrote: How is Lucas' line to Ruth a plot-hole? I just explained it. It's pretty simple to me. I don't mean to rock the boat but i really don't get it. Care to elaborate a little more?

I think what WhiteSwan means is that when Lucas said he had been "so careful", he really wasn't that careful if Beth found the real Lucas in seconds and Alec found out where John went to school.

Seems like a silly job of erasing evidence.....

Ah, okay. I'll give you that one. Big Grin

Maybe John didn't know Lucas was registered with the gym? Tongue

binkie · 29-11-2010, 10:43 PM

(29-11-2010 10:17 PM)BravoNine Wrote:
(29-11-2010 10:10 PM)Kirayuki Wrote: How is Lucas' line to Ruth a plot-hole? I just explained it. It's pretty simple to me. I don't mean to rock the boat but i really don't get it. Care to elaborate a little more?

I think what WhiteSwan means is that when Lucas said he had been "so careful", he really wasn't that careful if Beth found the real Lucas in seconds and Alec found out where John went to school.

Seems like a silly job of erasing evidence.....

What bothers me most about that line - and this really is a plot hole - is the extent to which it shows up, yet again, the paucity of logical thought that went into the construct of the Lucas-is-John storyline. Yes, we're back to that...

The underlying thread of explanation for this plotline relies on an acceptance of Lucas' memory as an unreliable and compromised thing. Effectively, he has to be reminded that he is John (feel my pain as I type those ridiculous words), and he has to prompt himself to recall all those pieces of John's life - including Maya - as they are contained in the briefcase of doom. Vaughan has to tell John that he is a conscious and knowing killer, that's how bad John's memory is of himself.

Even if we hand wave the total lack of continuity with established information regarding the role of memory in the characterisation of Lucas, there is still an almighty problem attached to this device in the internal politics of season 9: If Lucas cannot remember that he is John, what is there for him to be careful about? Even if he is referring to a general carefulness, undertaken in the early days of his deception (and I may have to bleach my brain after posting this), that line to Ruth places her absolutely at the centre of fear of discovery. I ask again: a discovery of what? Applying the so-hidden-he-is-hidden-even-from-Lucas logic of John's place in a deep dark hole in the deep dark middle of Lucas' apparently impenetrable memory of personal identity, surely there can be no awareness of anything waiting to be discovered, or needing to be hidden.

And then there's the issue of identity under torture, which is a whole other web of nastiness indulged in by the moral logic of this season. But that's a much further extension of the point made by WhiteSwan, so I'll stop before I get stuck in rant mode.